Any suggestions on what to do with this Chinese Elm? Im open to drastic changes.

[bennybonsai]

I've had it for about a year and a half now. Will be putting it in akadama, pummice, lava rock next month. Whilst I do that I feel its too bulky at the top. I feel having two main branches in that area growing opposite each other is creating to much swelling ruining the taper. So I'd like make some changes when I change the soil. If anyone could advise me on some options that would be great. The photos in the dark are the most recent.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hmm…. What we would do and what you might want to do could be two different things?

Beware this will take some time….

In the backyard here this be a the top candidate for a hard reset. Chop just below the lowest bend after leaves harden.

Think broom. Look up the threads here on broom development

Grow for a couple years redeveloping the trunk…. and begin branch sections.

Then begin work on the nebari… and take cut root sections for propagation.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

What a lot of photos! Sometimes we get a single photo but this time there's 16, many of them showing almost identical view of the tree. By the time I've scrolled down through all those I don't really feel like making a really considered response.

Broom style is one possibility but let's look at the problems first to see if there's any other less drastic possibilities.
You've already picked up on one of the issues:

I feel having two main branches in that area growing opposite each other is creating to much swelling ruining the taper.

That could easily be rectified with branch pruners.
I'm also seeing a strong section of the trunk toward the top with very little taper and much straighter than the curved sections below. Trunks generally look better with taper and any better when any bends are repeated through the entire tree, including branches. I note that despite the trunk having strong bends, the branches are quite straight and rigid. Consider wiring bends to echo the trunk or, better still, chop branches and regrow from side branches. Bends created by chop and grow are usually much more natural looking than any wired bends.

I'd be looking for a spot to remove that upper section. The middle branches are currently positioned well below vertical but it may be possible to wire one of those upward as a new apex? Make sure you don't repeat the previous. Wire increasingly closer and smaller bends into the new apical part of the trunk.

If it's not possible to bend any of those branches upward consider using one of the new shoots that should emerge after the trunk reduction for the new apex.

Too many photos to search for any other possibilities just now.

 

[bennybonsai]

Hmm…. What we would do and what you might want to do could be two different things?

Beware this will take some time….

In the backyard here this be a the top candidate for a hard reset. Chop just below the lowest bend after leaves harden.

Think broom. Look up the threads here on broom development

Grow for a couple years redeveloping the trunk…. and begin branch sections.

Then begin work on the nebari… and take cut root sections for propagation.

Cheers
DSD sends

Thanks Deep Sea Diver. I understand what your saying with regards to broom style. But I think I'd like try what Shibui suggested and save the middle section. Thanks though all advice is great.

 

[bennybonsai]

What a lot of photos! Sometimes we get a single photo but this time there's 16, many of them showing almost identical view of the tree. By the time I've scrolled down through all those I don't really feel like making a really considered response.

Broom style is one possibility but let's look at the problems first to see if there's any other less drastic possibilities.
You've already picked up on one of the issues:

That could easily be rectified with branch pruners.
I'm also seeing a strong section of the trunk toward the top with very little taper and much straighter than the curved sections below. Trunks generally look better with taper and any better when any bends are repeated through the entire tree, including branches. I note that despite the trunk having strong bends, the branches are quite straight and rigid. Consider wiring bends to echo the trunk or, better still, chop branches and regrow from side branches. Bends created by chop and grow are usually much more natural looking than any wired bends.

I'd be looking for a spot to remove that upper section. The middle branches are currently positioned well below vertical but it may be possible to wire one of those upward as a new apex? Make sure you don't repeat the previous. Wire increasingly closer and smaller bends into the new apical part of the trunk.

If it's not possible to bend any of those branches upward consider using one of the new shoots that should emerge after the trunk reduction for the new apex.

Too many photos to search for any other possibilities just now.

Yes my apologies for the million photos! Here are four with front, back and sides. Would it be okay to cut where I've marked? Then have the one I'm holding as new or leader? Or should new leader come directly from directly next to the trunk? Could I do this when changing soil next month? Thankyou

 

[Shibui]

Would it be okay to cut where I've marked? Then have the one I'm holding as new or leader? Or should new leader come directly from directly next to the trunk? Could I do this when changing soil next month? Thankyou

Your chop mark is where I was looking. It will get rid of the thick, straight section and has a side branch to replace the top you are removing so is an appropriate place to start.
I did not spot that small branch growing out and around the trunk. From that angle it looks like a great replacement trunk. BTW, it does grown from the trunk - all branches do, you just have to follow back far enough. I know that currently it's actually part of a side branch off another branch but, when it becomes the top of the tree it will grow faster than the others and soon look like it was always the main trunk. Looking at the other pics for 3D perspective you may still have to wire that branch. Looks like part of it dips down and out before growing upward. It will probably look better if it grows gradually upward all the way along but that's really hard to tell from photos. YOU need to check what it REALLY looks like in real life and make decisions there.
One good thing is that it already has a good bend down closer to the trunk. Don't forget to keep those bends happening as it grows, either by wiring or by pruning.

I've had no problems repotting, root pruning and chopping Chinese elm in one operation so I'd say you can go ahead and do it all this Spring.

 

[bennybonsai]

Okay brilliant thanks. Should I be cutting it at the angle i have put in this last photo? I was thinking of wiring it at the angle I'm holding it in now. Will the trunk eventually merge with the cut? Thanks again Shibui.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I agree with that chop area suggested. I might so much as repot it with a slight slant to the trunkline... personal preference though.

 

[brentwood]

Anyone else think this should wait a season? I would do the repot, then let it recover - it looks like a year of sun and fertilizer would do it some good.
I'm trying to be more deliberate, cautious with my trees, and if this were mine, I'd want it healthy before a big cut. And them maybe yeah, cut low and go broom.

B

 

[Cadillactaste]

Anyone else think this should wait a season? I would do the repot, then let it recover - it looks like a year of sun and fertilizer would do it some good.
I'm trying to be more deliberate, cautious with my trees, and if this were mine, I'd want it healthy before a big cut. And them maybe yeah, cut low and go broom.

B

Absolutely agree. The tree would benefit from being stronger.

 

[bennybonsai]

Anyone else think this should wait a season? I would do the repot, then let it recover - it looks like a year of sun and fertilizer would do it some good.
I'm trying to be more deliberate, cautious with my trees, and if this were mine, I'd want it healthy before a big cut. And them maybe yeah, cut low and go broom.

B

Okay thanks I'll definitely think about it. Though at the end of last summer it was growing like crazy so i may do it, but yeah I definitely don't want to kill it. Thanks you're input and advice.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Okay thanks I'll definitely think about it. Though at the end of last summer it was growing like crazy so i may do it, but yeah I definitely don't want to kill it. Thanks you're input and advice.

You know the health of the tree. We are seeing a winter image.

That said... I'm not a fan of brooms. ... I get others are. The trunk...is to formal for me. Best of luck in whatever you do.

 

[brentwood]

Okay thanks I'll definitely think about it. Though at the end of last summer it was growing like crazy so i may do it, but yeah I definitely don't want to kill it. Thanks you're input and advice.

Just being the voice of caution, I'm finding a lot of my best decisions in bonsai involve not doing anything. You probably won't kill it, but you might have better results waiting.
Going to be a cool tree, lot of possibility there.
B

 

[bennybonsai]

You know the health of the tree. We are seeing a winter image.

That said... I'm not a fan of brooms. ... I get others are. The trunk...is to formal for me. Best of luck in whatever you do.

Yeah I think it should be fine

I'm going to cut where I have marked in the picture and go from there. What would you do Cadillactaste? If you wouldn't mind at some point could you draw on the photo your thoughts please?

 

[bennybonsai]

Just being the voice of caution, I'm finding a lot of my best decisions in bonsai involve not doing anything. You probably won't kill it, but you might have better results waiting.
Going to be a cool tree, lot of possibility there.
B

Thanks man and I do take everything you said into consideration. I may not do the chop next month I'm going to think on it. I think I want to keep the bend.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Yeah I think it should be fine

I'm going to cut where I have marked in the picture and go from there. What would you do Cadillactaste? If you wouldn't mind at some point could you draw on the photo your thoughts please?

Currently down sick. But when I feel better if I don't offer a virtual. Rattle my cage again. I would definitely create a slant style tree. That I do know. As I prefer trees not coming straight out of the pot.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Thanks man and I do take everything you said into consideration. I may not do the chop next month I'm going to think on it. I think I want to keep the bend.

No true virtual. Just thoughts...

The tree looks to be moving away from the viewer here. Could be optical illusion. makes me think ... of my Chinese quince. the movement is hard to decipher in 2d. But.. slant and move it more away from you using this as a back... possibly. Making the backside a front. What does that do. When you move a curved trunk toward the viewer. It looks less S shaped. More twisting.

Here...take also look at this direct link for my Chinese quince. It takes a turn on the turntable. It slants toward the viewer...and comes out of the pot as a slant. Kind of what I'm trying to show you with your own. Now what you do with structure is dependant on the new angle... I'm not that good. lol

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[brentwood]

Another thought, you could do a best of both worlds approach, air layer the tree around this brown line suggesting the pot, keep the base for a broom, the curve for the upper section. I feel like there's some reverse taper, this turns it into a second, fat base.
B

 

[bennybonsai]

No true virtual. Just thoughts...

The tree looks to be moving away from the viewer here. Could be optical illusion. makes me think ... of my Chinese quince. the movement is hard to decipher in 2d. But.. slant and move it more away from you using this as a back... possibly. Making the backside a front. What does that do. When you move a curved trunk toward the viewer. It looks less S shaped. More twisting. View attachment 582883

Here...take also look at this direct link for my Chinese quince. It takes a turn on the turntable. It slants toward the viewer...and comes out of the pot as a slant. Kind of what I'm trying to show you with your own. Now what you do with structure is dependant on the new angle... I'm not that good. lol

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View this content on Instagram

Yeah that is the back haha. I look of it from the back with what you've made invisible though. Sorry I should have specified. No worries about the virtual. I hope you feel better soon.

 

[Cadillactaste]

For reference...what my trunk looked like. Now it did twist. But...that's irrelevant. you work with what ya got. I'm basing my guidance off this trunkline I started with.

Just remember... I still see it as a back. Slanting it. And offering a bow to the viewer. It may...not work. But it reminds me of my twist in the trunk...trunkline. Just having that pronounced bend in the trunk.


But to lean and angle the trunk in a bow to the viewer is what I would do.

If you had another pot or bowl. You could set your tree as it is (in the current pot) inside and play with angle changes. See if that even appeals to you.

Shoot...you may like a broom. They just are to formal for myself. Don't box yourself in. Let this material be a fun learning curve.