American Bonsai Society Announcement
- Thread starter my nellie
- Start date
Seriously, if you feel strongly about it, go over to Reddit and say what’s on your mind.
The way I see it, here are the possible outcomes:
1) The mods delete your post and do not address the substance of your argument. The ban remains. You can decide accordingly whether or not you want to remain part of a community that treats censorship so casually.
2) The mods leave your post up, but do not respond or lift the ban. Maybe the post provokes a vigorous debate or maybe it goes largely unnoticed.
3) The mods respond to your argument. Maybe they uphold the ban. Maybe they don’t. Maybe additional details about the alleged incident come out, or not.
In the end, you will have expressed your opinion on the matter and you will know where you stand in relation to that particular online community. What’s the worst that could happen?
bonsai-ben
Mame
FALSE.
Juan wrote a letter to the ABS board, of which all board members received -- and read -- on their board room chat forum they use. In it, Juan named Adam, and others (perhaps people very close to this thread). NOBODY from ABS investigated it. I read Juans complaint, all three or four pages and all fifteen or so paragraphs. It was sent to my by three of the board members when this started circulating. It is more fictional than the Lord of the Rings. Juan and his wife have lied, fabricated and provided false commentary to events that never occurred -- anywhere -- at any time -- by anyone named -- of which rebuttals were provided to the ABS of which were ignored, and ABS never issued a retraction or a response.
ABS should be sued for defamation, Juan should be sued for the same, Adam should not be banned anywhere. If you dont like adam -- That's great. He probably doesnt like you either. But this is abhorrent and you should be ashamed of yourself for promoting this if you are involved.
THAT is the truth. The MOB took over, and you guys won for a while. Juan named Adam. ABS didnt do any investigation, they just read it and VOTED ON ADAMS REMOVAL before even asking Adam what happened. Have a ABS board member confirm, this is the truth. AFTER they voted Adam to be removed, and wrote their defaming post on the Internet and promoted it to all of their Facebook viewers, AND THEN said "fuck you Komorebi" by never even announcing the show that had EQUAL ATTENDANCE to the US NATIONALS by the way -- because they dont like Adam.
Stop this embarrassment to the bonsai community now. Drop this bullshit and stop your tree politics. I have encouraged Adam -- AND will financially back the lawsuit -- should he decide to go that route. I know I'll get the attorney fees back. Those involved at ABS should be forced to resign or be re-elected out next year. That is why I am not a member, until they issue a written, and public apology, to Adam Lavigne.
Why have I taken a side? I have not. I am friends with Adam, as many are. If the accusations were true, I'd burn him to the stake too and unfriend him. This is nothing more than mob mentality and us versus them. There is no them. There is only us. We are all bonsai. We are all welcome here and if you dont "like" someone, just dont hang around them and leave it as that -- as adults should.
Thank you for entertaining my rant. I promise they wont happen but once every few years and only in times of having to set the false records straight.
Johnathan
Omono
So, the ABS used Juan to smoke Adam!?!?!? 
#BonsaiBeef
#LittleTreeFisticufs #stainlessVScarbon
On a side note, who is Juan? Who is Adam? What does ABS stand for again?
Accusations mean nothing! #Kavanaugh Unless you're Bill Cosby
Just tell him to make a blog about it and move on. Seems like Juan and the ABS have
Did we tag them here on Bnut? Are they members here? If not...... Why we talking about it???
#BonsaiBeef
#LittleTreeFisticufs #stainlessVScarbonOn a side note, who is Juan? Who is Adam? What does ABS stand for again?
Accusations mean nothing! #Kavanaugh Unless you're Bill Cosby
Just tell him to make a blog about it and move on. Seems like Juan and the ABS have
Did we tag them here on Bnut? Are they members here? If not...... Why we talking about it???
Interesting. I’ve never seen the letter you say Juan wrote to the board of ABS. All I ever saw was his Facebook post. Which named no one in particular. In fact, this is the first I’ve heard of any such letter.
If there was such a letter, should they have leaked it? Should they have investigated prior to banning anyone? It would seem to be particularly troubling since, if what you say is true, the letter implicated one of their own board members. (Of what, I have no idea.).
Much of the problem with this whole affair is no one really knows any of the facts. It’s all speculation. And hearsay.
bonsai-ben
Mame
That is where ABS broke the law. Instead of investigating it -- by interviewing ***anyone*** including Adam or others named -- ABS issued a blanket statement of defamation against Adam. And they issued it publicly. Juan never accused Adam of Racism. ABS did. Why? Good question -- That's why all of the membership dues are up for grabs in a lawsuit.
Juan and Bea's story has changed a number of times, who was involved, the accused or the standbyers, and nooooooobody allegedly involved has any idea what they are talking about -- including "witnesses" who have no clue. Juan's letter detailed accusations -- that he heard from his wife -- that she heard from someone else all of who said never said those things to her.
Not only was the story inaccurate, it also MATERIALLY CHANGED in multiple written statements not only with WHO was involved, but WHEN *and* WHERE! Who, what, where, when are questions that have answers that shall never change for facts. When "facts" change by the accuser when evidence is presented to the contrary -- well then you have fraud. This type of fraud is a CRIMINAL LIABILITY for defamation, extortion, fraud, and more chargeable civil liabilities.
Inclusive of all of that above -- Not only were the accusations proven wrong by -- ZERO witnesses said the events even occurred -- AND WILL TESTIFY TO THIS. This is NOTHING more than people who dont like adam trying to promote themselves. Shameful, very shameful.
Not only are ABS and Juan liable under a federal defamation claim which could be filed in a Federal District court -- there is also damages and attorney fees on top. I have -- and continue -- to strongly encourage Adam to litigate this. And he has my wallet as his backing. I will pay an unlimited sum to see this resolved with fairness and truth. Adam HAS lost business, and HAS been financially and emotionally harmed as a result of this and those damages shall be paid to him monetarily for those that continue to provoke.
Additionally, a suit should be filed against those on forums that continue to spread the falsehoods knowing that they are false -- That is what defamation is and that is what you are legally responsible for conducting yourself in a legal manner.
If you ask yourself why this happened the answer is easy -- People got butt hurt trees didnt get accepted, butt hurt because Adam ran BSF and they didnt get to do what they wanted to, butt hurt because Adam and Literati Grove was sponsoring a show in Miami. Butt hurt because adam isnt Japan trained but knows way more than most of those that were. Butt hurt because they chose to live in a city in a state where nobody has a need for their services.
NONE of those are valid reasons to state that someone is racist, xenophobe, or a violinist when none are true.
Conduct yourself accordingly, fellow forum haters.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
See, here's the deal. ALL OF THIS IS HEARSAY. ALL UNSBUSTANTIATED THIRD PARTY.
It's hard to believe anyone about any of this stuff. The sheer venom directed at Juan in the above post is hard to swallow. The same as the venom about Adam. Unless you all have ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL and FACTUAL to add (such as the FREAKING LETTER) stop the whining, or at least WHINE IN THE APPROPRIATE PLACE.
Lawsuits could abound-the above post says laws were broken (name one-- and NOT the "slander" and "defamation" stuff-which is a notoriously slippery legal slope. Those terms are slung around anytime someone doesn't like something that's being said about them)
It's hard to believe anyone about any of this stuff. The sheer venom directed at Juan in the above post is hard to swallow. The same as the venom about Adam. Unless you all have ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL and FACTUAL to add (such as the FREAKING LETTER) stop the whining, or at least WHINE IN THE APPROPRIATE PLACE.
Lawsuits could abound-the above post says laws were broken (name one-- and NOT the "slander" and "defamation" stuff-which is a notoriously slippery legal slope. Those terms are slung around anytime someone doesn't like something that's being said about them)
my nellie
Masterpiece
I am not a USA citizen and perhaps you are justified to say this is not my business...
But, please allow me to kindly ask the same as above
But, please allow me to kindly ask the same as above
Each and every word added it adds to the shame, humiliation and the embarrassment.
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namnhi
Masterpiece
WHERE IS THE FREAKING LETTER?
atlarsenal
Omono
I can’t believe someone would call him a violinist, I’m applauded!
bonsai-ben
Mame
Defamation is not a slippery slope. If I say "you suck!" that's not defamation. I didnt hurt you or cause you financial harm. If I say that you molested a child, or you murdered someone, or you are a drug addict, that's completely different, will cause you harm and stress, and could cause you financial harm. There is a burden of proof, of which Adam's case *far* exceeds -- That's the amazement of published public postings by an organization to their Facebook page. Everyone sees it and the damage is immediately done -- and recorded.. No jury in the world, with the evidence gathered from all parties and the actions by BSF would award otherwise.
Similarly, publishing blanket statements accusing someone of being a racist or otherwise in an effort to banish someone from a non profit organization in an attempt to financially harm someone, is also, illegal.
For your own future research:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/4101
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-47
The law is cut and dry. As are, also, the penalties and process for resolution. This is not a "Oh cut it out guys" situation. Adam has a mortgage to pay. People in ABS and Juan have succeded in harming him financially. I have SEEN the emails from clubs saying they dont want him to show up because of the accusations. Financial harm is proven, damage has been done. The only resolution ABS has to escape this suit is to formally apologize to Adam. I hope that the President of ABS, after being notified today of the pending litigation, chooses to apologize for their misdeeds as an organization and those involved voluntarily step down -- permanently and forever as they are the ones who created this *entire* mess. So far, ABS has not replied. We hope they do. After ABS will be the individuals, individually in a separate suit.
Additionally, ABS should adopt a code of conduct to ensure that something like this never happens again.
Adam is owed an apology and a retraction. Short of that, a gavel will cure this.
bonsai-ben
Mame
Edit: Post above should say ABS, not BSF, in the first paragraph. Typo, apologies. <-- This is an example of a retraction, ABS should take example of.
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
You sir have a lovely garden and I'm very happy that Adam has your friendship.
There’s litigation? A suit has been filed?
Proving financial damages will be difficult. You say Adam’s business has diminished. Was it diminishing before Juan left? Could it be, I’m just asking... I don’t know anything of Adam’s business, but could it be that the bonsai community moved their business from Adam to Juan? Could it be that Adam’s business was shrinking due to competition?
New competition can take business away from existing businesses just because they’re new and different. A town has a Publix grocery, for years, and a new Harris Teeter’s opens up. Some of the Publix customers are going to start shopping at the Harris Teeter.
So, if Adam’s business is diminished, how much is due to pure competition, and how much is due to whatever the ABS said?
Look, regardless of who is right and who is wrong, the longer you wallow in this mud hole, the dirtier the whole thing becomes.
So, you’re saying Adam is going to sue individuals? Some of the same people who donated to help pay his medical bills a couple years ago? Really???
SU2
Omono
Interesting, I'd thought FL was his "last stop" and got the impression he was focusing in the more temperate areas of the US (though as said I don't pay for content, yet at least, so am incredibly limited in what I've found from him
Re "After he returned to CR, I sent him an PM asking about what happened. Again, he did not want to mention any names, but merely said that “the Florida people” let him down, preventing him from being able to stay. You can read into that as you will.", I'm sorry but that just rings false to me (in the context of me granting the premise that there was serious, calculated malicious slander), FL was his 'last stop' before leaving and he'd been here a year in the graces of Mirai and Bonsai Empire, I don't know what level of sway the "FL crowd" holds on a nat'l level but I guess I just imagine that he'd be bouncing between the Mirai guys in CO and to various tropical spots in the south, it's just so hard to believe that the FL people "prevent(ed) him from being able to stay", he was here for a while and had great orgs supporting him (Mirai must be considered one of the best, and clearly the ABS folks are behind him), it's hard for me to see this as anything more than "the US immigration system sucks" (not trying to paraphrase him, it's how I feel about it....if there were doubts about him getting clearance, for chrissakes a letter-campaign/petition could've been started, I and I'm sure most people would've jumped at the opportunity to keep an up&coming artist in the states!)
Thanks again for the info, and for the good-faith replies, I hate how poorly tone translates via text and was afraid you'd think some of my post was trying to be negative about things, I just want to understand things and I'm just unable to wrap my head around how ABS's statement is remotely in-concert with reality (and, if it's not, that is a seriously worrisome action on their behalf, they shouldn't be trying to play politics or favorites they should be trying to promote all bonsai artists if they're doing anything more than administratively helping the community coalesce for shows/competitions/etc)
Again, thanks, am going to make a thread on Reddit (and hope it's allowed to stay up) but am glad I brought it up here and especially glad you were able to help clarify some things, truly appreciated
[Oh and from yesterday:
I went there and it was a page for a guy named Boon (hosting 1 entry regarding Juan) but found Juan by linking from there (oddly enough, just searching facebook for Juan andrade or Juan andrade bonsai, doesn't get you there...but I got to his page by linking from the page you provided) Thanks for the link, while I only had time to briefly scroll through Juan's work I saw a lot of great coniferous styling/work, I need to spend more time to find his tropical work because I know he does it and am always looking for new sources of inspiration on styling my bougies!
SU2
Omono
I'm sorry I dunno how you got that from my posts, I'm not "bitching about not being able to get his free content", his site is the free content and that stands *and* he still has a reddit account and, when I'd PM'd him asking if he'd post to my thread (when I found he was still banned), he told me he was banned but he still, privately, answered my Q. This has literally zero to do with a personal desire to get free content from him, his ban at reddit doesn't affect that. My problem is that I found this wonderful art through his site and the idea of him being barred from a main bonsai venue (especially over 3rd-party, off-line accusations that are seeming less and less believable as time goes on and more comes to light) just infuriates me, it bothers me in the same way that any attempted silencing of those speaking positively would bother me, I can assure you it's got nothing to do with me personally wanting free info (and, furthermore, I've gone to two workshops in my life and both were the times that he was visiting my local club, anytime he does a workshop/demo in my area I'll certainly be attending but my problem here has nothing to do with my personal desire for his info, seeking his info was simply what let me see he was still banned and got me trying to figure out WTH the reason could possibly be)
Re Adam wanting to make $ in bonsai, I re-read my posts and am not seeing where I implied otherwise....Adam re-sells gear and I'm betting dollars-to-donuts that he doesn't do those workshops for free, and I've no problem with that (am happy for it, I wish far more could make $ in this hobby, further I think the more inclusive and larger the community becomes, the more $ there will be to go around, bigger pie and all that), the only line I'd written that could possibly account for your line implying I was ignorant that Adam makes $ in bonsai is when I made the comparison between someone like Adam who, first and foremost, is a hobbyist with almost a decade of free blogging who has begun to make $ selling gear (unsure when that started, am barely 2yrs into the hobby) but clearly has a passion for the art and is eager to share his knowledge and to help others, and someone like the type Adair described who approach it as a "let's see what $ I can make here" venture. I have very different levels of respect for these variances in approach and I'm betting you & most others do as well, to really make this clear let's just compare someone like @Mellow Mullet who, so far as I can tell, doesn't make a penny (in fact, it looks like he's spending $ on his site just to publicly chronicle his work and help others!) and does it for the love of bonsai, to Joe-Schmoe who makes a killing with his regional monopoly on Mallsai retail, supplying Home Depot's and shopping malls with chintzy $5 Ginsengs or Junipers put into a cheap pot and marked to $30+......surely that "extreme" or logical-extension of the comparison I was making should clarify what I meant and do away with any idea I implied Adam had some silly, purist idea of "I won't take a penny from something I'm putting most of my life into"...
And about my beef, I don't even know what FL people you mean (so far as I've been able to glean, FL is behind him- the BSF sent >600 emails looking for some proof of wrongdoing or anything corroborating the ABS statement and got nothing..), can't think of a single person in FL I'd take issue with....but reddit, yes, I take issue with at least 1 mod there because of how a purportedly-temporary ban silently became a perma-ban while simultaneously seeing Adam removed / Juan added (to #1) to the Artist&Blogs list, so I posted here because I believed that posting there would just get me deleted (IE I think the people with the final say there are anti-Adam / pro-Juan and are moderating based on that, I'm not saying all the mods are as I've spoken to >1 who've expressed they aren't on-board with this perma-ban but, as mentioned in my post bumping this thread, I'd reached out to them over a month ago and found he's still banned, so my problem is with the mod(s) who are basically stonewalling this)
I didn't post it there because I expected it'd be removed but, with this alive again, I am planning to get in touch with the mods once again and ask them to remedy, as well as make a public thread about it (I didn't start there because I thought it'd just be shut-down, as if it never happened, at least this way there's enough board-crossover that, if I post and they erase it, it's shown that just speaking of it is now out-of-bounds and that's an ugly look that I don't think anyone wants to wear.
I hate how you always seem to view me as so much worse than I am, seeing me here as looking for free info (Adam's is great but there's no shortage of free info online, plus that means my problem here is a personal one and not a concern about the community at-large), or that I'm being so naive that I think Adam is trying to promote bonsai entirely for free / wouldn't want to make $....I don't ever expect to quit bonsai and do plan to start going to shows at some point, I hope to meet you someday as I'm pretty damn sure you won't think so poorly of me if you'd met me IRL, I feel like I rubbed you the wrong way when I first got on this board and you've disliked me ever since and am at the point I don't think there's anything I could say/do online to change your opinion of me unfortunately :/
bonsai-ben
Mame
With respect to Adam's possibility of litigating individuals I have no intent to finance that, although Adam may do as he wishes as remember -- this is Adams case, not mine. Let me ask you a question Adair -- Would YOU sue the individuals? Let's say that someone you know -- someone who hates you and wants to cause you harm -- says to your friends ""Adair is a racist and he has charges pending in Brazil"" with seriousness and intent even though is fiction at its finest. There you are my friend -- False statements and defamation -- I ask you this question with the intent to spur your brains thought. You are clearly not a rapist. You most likely have never been to Brazil. If I shouted this to a crowd of people who are your friends with the intent of them to turn on you and actions of the same -- would you just say "Well, that's OK -- He gave me fifty bucks on gofundme(or whatever existed then!) a few years ago when I was almost dying ??" I submit, that I would not, and neither should you. If I were Adam, I might issue them a refund check though, because I wouldnt want their fifty bucks if that's what they think buying treating me like that costs. It's like that kid who still owes me $20. I dont want the money back. I'm happy not to have to talk to him ever again if he thinks he can con twenty bucks to buy smokes and dodge repaying it. Who wants that friend, who ordered that?
Proving financial damages, sure, we can touch on that. Multiple emails within 2 or 3 days of ABS's factually incorrect, statement against him of cancels for future trips specifically citing the ABS statement as the reason -- should be sufficient enough. But there's more. There's much more. Our Nations largest supplier of bonsai canceling citing same recently as just a few days ago for this years event, of which Adam declined other events because of a paid commitment having been offered to him prior. There is no question about it, this has caused him financial harm, emotional stress, and continues to do so. A complaint of "I wish I had more business" is a substantially different complaint, than "As a result of the actions of Juan and ABS' defamation, I have lost existing bookings and had to issue refunds to some, even a year later after the accusations because ABS stands by them still to this day" -- the latter occurring here. Except, to make it worse, ABS did it as a non profit organization, on their facebook page to the world.
ABS has been notified of intent to sue, and unless a retraction and apology is made, a suit will be filed in federal court. Adam is in full steerage of litigation and its green or red lights. I, am not. I am, however, fully paying for it, without the intent of repayment of a penny. Filing a lawsuit does not mean you are trying to drain a companies cash. It means you are trying to declare they did something wrong and hurt you in the process. Whether or not Adam would ask a trial judge for monetary damages post trial, attorney fees, or just a simple declaratory judgment, is a decision to be made between him and the attorney he has chosen and I support any decision he makes in *his* process. When Adam decides to file, he already has my blessing and the retainer check will be deposited by the attorney. ABS' response will steer Adams decision from here, I would suspect. I HOPE that ABS and Adam will resolve it, without having to resort to seeing an appointed judge. Doing that stops the attorney financial drain that will happen. ABS funds should be used for BONSAI, not sitting in a checking account ready for paying the attorneys because of their organizational actions. However, should they continue to neglect the fire they started, and continue to harm Adam, he must do *something*. A name must be cleared when no wrong was done and you are being hurt.
After this reply on the topic, given the nature of a pending litigation, I would like to refrain from falling in the trap of replying to every post with a single question that may derail the attention from the true facts of this case and cause reply nit picking -- it tends to provoke and inflame more. Adams resolution will not be on Bonsai Nut. Adams resolution will be directly with ABS. You will hear of it later, here, one way or another, I'm sure. I wanted to reply to you since my original reply was to you, and you had a followup question.
On a personal note -- I love trees. I really love when everyone posts about them, and has questions from a seedling and when they should wire it (!!) to some of the finest ramified trees I've seen. Some inspire me, some show me what I want to avoid, and I learn from your mistakes and success. I read every day and have for almost 2 years. This IS a good community. You may not all get along but you do participate without trying to banish each other and lie about each other until they have to quit because they cant pay bills anymore. Bonsai is supposed to be fun. To me this entire situation is nothing more than a distraction by a few individuals to a hobby that brings people from different backgrounds together. I've met astronauts, psychologists, psychos too, teachers, painters, neurosurgeons, even high school and kids younger and more. Our club is a checkerboard of colors, we host all races proudly and have for fifty years. Bonsai brings people together. Promote that, not the rest of what you are reading on these types of threads. Back to working trees, I'm really behind on maintenance work.
SU2
Omono
Yeah it was after I found he was still banned, I went to see if he was still in that sidebar links-area and found that not only was he not, but that Juan was put at #1 - seeing that, at that point, it was seeming very strange that he was still banned (temp-ban was ~2mo old, I'd already spoken to a mod who'd expressed they didn't believe the ABS statement and wanted/expected to reinstate him) so PM'd a 2nd mod (and got similar viewpoint as the first) yet, weeks later, he was still banned.....that's why I came and posted here, because my intuition is that half the mods want him back yet they're unable to persuade the other two (FWIW, of the 'other two', one doesn't even post in /bonsai, his last post there was when the ABS statement was released, a post to condemn bigotry....so can only guess he's the one fighting to keep Adam banned, also the one to put Juan to the top, and the only reason I could fathom for why he'd be able to do so is that, on Reddit, my understanding is there's 'control'/'keys' to a subreddit, so even if more active mods are for something, if they aren't in that higher position, basically it's too bad - ridiculous, unfair, antithetical to free expression, and just plain unfair as Adam's supposed transgressions had nothing to do with online posting which is the jurisdiction of the mods...)
I feel silly for not having clicked his link, upon seeing him added / Adam removed I was taken aback and realized it was a "favoritism" thing so that dwarfed my curiosity in Juan's work, however subsequent Googling has found very little content, at least compared to many other practitioners (and infinitesimal compared to Adam's) Here's hoping Adam is reinstated as he deserves, and that Juan gets an easier go the next time he has to deal with arcane immigration policies (which, it seems pretty clear now, were a major, perhaps central, reason he left - not because, as the ABS says, not because "he felt increasingly slandered" and suffered a loss of dignity so bad that he had to pack up and leave (that is what the ABS was pushing when they launched this drama!)
SU2
Omono
Haha I'm going to watch Solo tonight, thanks for the media ;D
And I intend to, I've been rolling it around since bumping this and unsure if it's more tasteful to PM the mods first or just put it up....have been going-over how I'd do it, would post 100.0% objective, un-questionable facts and simply set it up as something like "Are most here comfortable with offline accusations being grounds for banishment?"
But yeah my first thought was to start a thread there I just expected it'd be taken down, at least now that I've bumped this I can then go and make that thread and, if taken-down, at least it's public-knowledge that they wouldn't even allow an objective question about whether a majority of posters are/are-not comfortable with this....frankly, it's kind of easy to miss someone's absence, my intuition is that most on Reddit aren't even aware he's still banned (all the more reason I expected it'd get pulled quickly), so having made this thread I at least have somewhere online where I was able to put this out so people can google it and find what's what (cannot fathom my posts on this site being tinkered with, have never ever heard of a single impropriety so far as how this site's run, thankfully!!)
music~maker
Shohin
FYI - I just posted this over at /r/bonsai.
Open Letter to the Bonsai Community: Follow-up on Adam Lavigne (adamaskwhy)
Ok, I’ll admit that I’m more than a little hesitant to re-open this particular can of worms, but here goes.
No matter where you stand on this particular issue, I ask that you read this with an open mind. In the interest of transparency and moving forward together as a community, I’m going to lay out everything as best I can.
A few months ago, there were some pretty serious allegations levied against Adam Lavigne, a long time member of this community. Specifically, the allegations were racism and xenophobia towards another member of the bonsai community. One of our mods took it upon himself to write an angry open letter, which none of the other mods approved, and that resulted in a whole lot of drama, much of which I’d just assume leave in the past. Those of you who were following along know exactly what I’m talking about. The end result was that Adam received a temporary ban until we could figure out exactly what was going on.
At the peak of the drama, I can say this. I observed some pretty atrocious human behavior. I saw people who I know for sure knew even less than I did (and frankly, I didn’t know all that much) suddenly willing to pick up pitch forks and throw somebody who was previously very well-respected all the way under the bus, then stop the bus so they could back up and run over him another 3 or 4 times. All without anything other than hearsay and 2nd and 3rd hand accounts.
No matter where you stand on this issue, I think that is something we should all pause and reflect on. What burden of proof are you willing to accept before you are willing to punish somebody for something? I learned, much to my dismay, that many people’s bar for evidence is very, very low. The willingness to attack someone without any hard evidence was actually extremely disheartening to me, and it really soured me on the sub for a few months. For those wondering why I haven’t been around as much lately, that was why. I needed a bit of space to contemplate.
So let’s lay out some facts about the issue at hand:
So at this point in time, we would like to welcome Adam back to the /r/bonsai sub as a full member of the /r/bonsai community, in good standing, effective immediately.
I’d also like to take personal responsibility for the duration of the ban. It did not imply guilt or anything else. In truth, facing down the Internet mob was incredibly overwhelming for me over the summer at a time when I really couldn’t afford for it to be. It had a huge impact on my life, my business, and my family. I’m sure it was nothing compared to what Adam had to deal with, but it was pretty intense to say the least. So I needed to let it drop for a while, and I needed the angry mob to put down their pitch forks. I can say this though - may you never need to face down an angry Internet mob. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. I guess I can now check that one off my bucket list.
Believing victims
For those who will say that we should believe victims, I will respond that I agree with you. That was where we started, and that’s why we left the ban in place while we looked into things. But when the alleged incident does not occur here, no victim or directly involved party comes forward to corroborate, and no satisfactory details ever emerge, I would ask you in response - just how far should one go to punish somebody based on something that may not even have happened and for which you have no evidence?
I’m OK with the fact that we issued a temporary ban until we could get to the bottom of things. I do think the ban lasted too long, and again, I’ll take full responsibility for that, but I also think it was reasonable to look further into things given the very serious nature of the allegations. We do take this stuff very seriously, and protecting the overall community was first and foremost on our minds.
And just for the record - I don’t know Juan, but I do know plenty of people who do know him. He sounds like a great guy, and I honestly wish him the best, and I hope to meet him some day in my travels. And also for the record, I bear none of the parties involved any ill will, and I hope that we can all come together as a community and heal the rift that was opened here.
As part of this, we have added a more explicit anti-harassment policy to the sub rules. We already had civility rules in places, but we’ve taken that a level further.
The new rule in the sidebar and wiki is:
I’m sure that some of you won’t agree and have already made up your minds, but I ask you - do you really know what happened? Based on the information available to me, I choose to believe Adam, and to take him at his word when he says that he did not do the things we was accused of. I have no satisfactory evidence to back up any of the allegations, and I have every reason to believe that he’s telling the truth. Whatever did happen between Adam and Juan, I’m going to just let stay between them at this point. In the interest of moving forward, I ask that you all do the same.
And even if you don’t agree, I respectfully ask that you accept our decision and judgement on this. This was not an easy process, and there was no clear cut right or wrong answer here. No matter what we did, somebody was going to be mad at us. Sometimes in life, when you’re in a leadership position, you just have to make the best judgement call that you can with the information you have available. We’ve done our best to look at the facts and draw the best conclusions we can. For those of you who have been around a while and have interacted with me, you’ll know that I try to be extremely fair and objective with people, and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever I can. I hope you know that if any of you were in Adam’s shoes, I would expect the same level of evidence before throwing you under the bus.
Closing Thoughts
I learned throughout this process that two of my most cherished core values are "Due Process" and "Innocent until Proven Guilty". In the absence of any sort of guide or precedent, those were the guiding principles I chose to follow here. Just know that we did the best we could in an impossible situation. Other people may have handled things differently, but I can pretty firmly say that nobody could have known the 100% right thing to do. This situation was a series of tough judgement calls based on extremely limited information. No black & white answers here for any of this.
As far as I’m concerned, we followed reasonable due process and then some, and we have reached a fair and reasonable conclusion to the best of our ability. Along the way, we kept the best interests of the community at heart at every step of the process. I honestly don’t know what more could be expected.
This entire situation was gut-wrenching for everyone involved, and I ask now that we come together as a community, forgive and forget, and let the healing process commence. Both Juan and Adam are extremely talented bonsai artists who have added tremendous value to the bonsai community over the years. I ask that we do our best to let this be water under the bridge, and let’s go back to learning from them, and working on little trees together.
If any of you have any questions about the process, I’ll do my best to answer them in the thread below. But I’ll warn you now - I’m not going to re-litigate this, and I won’t hesitate to remove any comments that I feel cause damage or re-open the rift. The decision has been made, and that’s that. Let’s do our best to move on from here.
I sincerely hope that I don’t lose any friends over this, but we cannot in good conscience leave a ban in place that is harming somebody’s reputation and career without sufficient evidence to justify it.
I look forward to many more years of working on little trees together as a community.
Cheers,
~MM
Open Letter to the Bonsai Community: Follow-up on Adam Lavigne (adamaskwhy)
Ok, I’ll admit that I’m more than a little hesitant to re-open this particular can of worms, but here goes.
No matter where you stand on this particular issue, I ask that you read this with an open mind. In the interest of transparency and moving forward together as a community, I’m going to lay out everything as best I can.
A few months ago, there were some pretty serious allegations levied against Adam Lavigne, a long time member of this community. Specifically, the allegations were racism and xenophobia towards another member of the bonsai community. One of our mods took it upon himself to write an angry open letter, which none of the other mods approved, and that resulted in a whole lot of drama, much of which I’d just assume leave in the past. Those of you who were following along know exactly what I’m talking about. The end result was that Adam received a temporary ban until we could figure out exactly what was going on.
At the peak of the drama, I can say this. I observed some pretty atrocious human behavior. I saw people who I know for sure knew even less than I did (and frankly, I didn’t know all that much) suddenly willing to pick up pitch forks and throw somebody who was previously very well-respected all the way under the bus, then stop the bus so they could back up and run over him another 3 or 4 times. All without anything other than hearsay and 2nd and 3rd hand accounts.
No matter where you stand on this issue, I think that is something we should all pause and reflect on. What burden of proof are you willing to accept before you are willing to punish somebody for something? I learned, much to my dismay, that many people’s bar for evidence is very, very low. The willingness to attack someone without any hard evidence was actually extremely disheartening to me, and it really soured me on the sub for a few months. For those wondering why I haven’t been around as much lately, that was why. I needed a bit of space to contemplate.
So let’s lay out some facts about the issue at hand:
- The alleged incident did not occur here.
- The alleged victim has never come forward to corroborate anything.
- The vague public details that were available all came from third parties
- Literally everything I’ve ever heard about this has been hearsay from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts. I’ve still never even gotten a clear run-down of precisely what is alleged to have happened from anyone who was directly involved.
- So essentially, we were given zero transparency into whatever occurred, yet we were asked to punish somebody based on a leap of faith.
- Full disclosure: I was shown a couple of things that were presented to me as evidence, but imho, they weren’t evidence of anything but interpersonal drama. Certainly nothing even remotely on the level of what Adam was accused of.
- In the time since this happened, there have been no further accusations. Zero.
- BSF (Bonsai Society of Florida) investigated, and an email was sent out to about 600 Florida bonsai people asking for corroborating evidence, and it resulted in no additional evidence or corroboration of anything that Adam was accused of.
- Additionally, the Central Florida Bonsai club took a vote of confidence, and 90% of members voted in full support of Adam.
- Numerous well-respected bonsai artists who do know Adam have come forward and vouched for him, some of whom know both Adam and Juan.
- Adam has an impeccable track record here. I don’t know Adam all that well personally, but I do recognize a good teacher and a good person when I see one, and my interactions with him have not only been 100% positive, but I’ve only ever seen him be helpful and positive to other people. So I feel pretty comfortable vouching for him too.
So at this point in time, we would like to welcome Adam back to the /r/bonsai sub as a full member of the /r/bonsai community, in good standing, effective immediately.
I’d also like to take personal responsibility for the duration of the ban. It did not imply guilt or anything else. In truth, facing down the Internet mob was incredibly overwhelming for me over the summer at a time when I really couldn’t afford for it to be. It had a huge impact on my life, my business, and my family. I’m sure it was nothing compared to what Adam had to deal with, but it was pretty intense to say the least. So I needed to let it drop for a while, and I needed the angry mob to put down their pitch forks. I can say this though - may you never need to face down an angry Internet mob. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. I guess I can now check that one off my bucket list.
Believing victims
For those who will say that we should believe victims, I will respond that I agree with you. That was where we started, and that’s why we left the ban in place while we looked into things. But when the alleged incident does not occur here, no victim or directly involved party comes forward to corroborate, and no satisfactory details ever emerge, I would ask you in response - just how far should one go to punish somebody based on something that may not even have happened and for which you have no evidence?
I’m OK with the fact that we issued a temporary ban until we could get to the bottom of things. I do think the ban lasted too long, and again, I’ll take full responsibility for that, but I also think it was reasonable to look further into things given the very serious nature of the allegations. We do take this stuff very seriously, and protecting the overall community was first and foremost on our minds.
And just for the record - I don’t know Juan, but I do know plenty of people who do know him. He sounds like a great guy, and I honestly wish him the best, and I hope to meet him some day in my travels. And also for the record, I bear none of the parties involved any ill will, and I hope that we can all come together as a community and heal the rift that was opened here.
As part of this, we have added a more explicit anti-harassment policy to the sub rules. We already had civility rules in places, but we’ve taken that a level further.
The new rule in the sidebar and wiki is:
- Hate has no place here. Harassment on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual preference, age, etc is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
I’m sure that some of you won’t agree and have already made up your minds, but I ask you - do you really know what happened? Based on the information available to me, I choose to believe Adam, and to take him at his word when he says that he did not do the things we was accused of. I have no satisfactory evidence to back up any of the allegations, and I have every reason to believe that he’s telling the truth. Whatever did happen between Adam and Juan, I’m going to just let stay between them at this point. In the interest of moving forward, I ask that you all do the same.
And even if you don’t agree, I respectfully ask that you accept our decision and judgement on this. This was not an easy process, and there was no clear cut right or wrong answer here. No matter what we did, somebody was going to be mad at us. Sometimes in life, when you’re in a leadership position, you just have to make the best judgement call that you can with the information you have available. We’ve done our best to look at the facts and draw the best conclusions we can. For those of you who have been around a while and have interacted with me, you’ll know that I try to be extremely fair and objective with people, and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever I can. I hope you know that if any of you were in Adam’s shoes, I would expect the same level of evidence before throwing you under the bus.
Closing Thoughts
I learned throughout this process that two of my most cherished core values are "Due Process" and "Innocent until Proven Guilty". In the absence of any sort of guide or precedent, those were the guiding principles I chose to follow here. Just know that we did the best we could in an impossible situation. Other people may have handled things differently, but I can pretty firmly say that nobody could have known the 100% right thing to do. This situation was a series of tough judgement calls based on extremely limited information. No black & white answers here for any of this.
As far as I’m concerned, we followed reasonable due process and then some, and we have reached a fair and reasonable conclusion to the best of our ability. Along the way, we kept the best interests of the community at heart at every step of the process. I honestly don’t know what more could be expected.
This entire situation was gut-wrenching for everyone involved, and I ask now that we come together as a community, forgive and forget, and let the healing process commence. Both Juan and Adam are extremely talented bonsai artists who have added tremendous value to the bonsai community over the years. I ask that we do our best to let this be water under the bridge, and let’s go back to learning from them, and working on little trees together.
If any of you have any questions about the process, I’ll do my best to answer them in the thread below. But I’ll warn you now - I’m not going to re-litigate this, and I won’t hesitate to remove any comments that I feel cause damage or re-open the rift. The decision has been made, and that’s that. Let’s do our best to move on from here.
I sincerely hope that I don’t lose any friends over this, but we cannot in good conscience leave a ban in place that is harming somebody’s reputation and career without sufficient evidence to justify it.
I look forward to many more years of working on little trees together as a community.
Cheers,
~MM
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