All I know is that I don't know nothin'

[bonsaidave]

I feel like I know just enough to be dangerous and I have a suspicion I'm on the cusp of killing a lot of trees that I've kept alive just by the benefit of being very, very conservative in the techniques I practice.

This year will be my 4th year playing in the backyard. It feels like I am starting to figure a few things out. My 3rd spring I got a little to ballsy and killed a handful of young trees due to various mistakes (took off to many roots, repotted too late, not enough water in winter, and so on). I learned some valuable lessons from those and this year I have so far only killed 1 stick in a pot from lack of water.

My Advice:
-Get some saplings, grow them, and train them.
-Have a couple test trees to try out new things.
-Every mistake is an opportunity to improve and become better. Get as much as you can out of each opportunity.
-Look for inspiration in other countries doing their version of trees in pots. I found some pictures and videos of some really interesting trees by searching Hon Non Bo.

keyboard hero’s

I don't interject too often because this is exactly who I don't want to be.

Work your trees in your own backyard for 15 years then post them up.

T minus 11 years until the bonsaidave backyard of horrors show.

 

[Smoke]

T minus 11 years until the bonsaidave backyard of horrors show.

Now that is funny stuff right there!!

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@Owen Reich @Smoke

i agree with you guys, and have reached out to both of you directly in the past for advice out of respect for your knowledge and accomplishments

could i please ask, are you members in any other online forum? I ask because BonsaiNut seems to be a place where members expect that what should be exchanged is expert advice by experienced practitioners. maybe that’s overstated, but the standard does seem to be higher here than anywhere else (including medical forums...).

I am part of a few aquarium, garden and car forums. I can say with absolute certainty that the discussion there is a free exchange of ideas, opinions, and advice from members at all levels. the burden of deciphering which advice to follow, and which to ignore, is on the reader.

I’m not saying it’s a good thing that somebody with 2 posts might ask “when should i water my tree”, but this is a reliable place to be sent in the right direction (if not here, then where?). We all help people who are at that stage when we can, sometimes with wise-cracks where the newcomer gets not just the information they wanted, but the crucial insight that they could have found that information by reading on their own. And that was the biggest help that i personally received here: after 1 post i knew i had to read a lot, and start driving around the continent, if i wanted to learn. That wasn’t obvious to me at first. (and the guy at Home Depot, where I got my first tree, was not going to tell me that).

i would say that a lot of people use a *post* in this forum as google-search, and we are the engine that yields results both precise and great, vague and poor.

i ask a lot of questions here. About 6 months in i already knew that i could really trust every word from a dozen members, and that everybody else here was, like me, just a fellow human with a common interest and opinions that are as interesting, experienced and worth about as much as my own

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I started my bonsai hobby in the late summer of 2017 and began devouring books, videos, forum topics, as well as joining my local club. During this time I have changed careers and settled in with a new company so attending one on one workshops and the like just hasn't been in the cards. Lately, though, I am almost overwhelmed with the details and minutiae involved in the art and hobby. I'm rolling into Springtime number two and find myself contemplating basic issues issues such as the behavior of trees at bud break while at the same time seeing in depth conversations and analysis online of much more advanced topics and wondering if I am missing something. For some of the guys who have been practicing for decades, do you remember being in the same boat? Any advice for that time frame in learning where one is constantly questioning whether they are practicing the right techniques at the right time? I feel like I know just enough to be dangerous and I have a suspicion I'm on the cusp of killing a lot of trees that I've kept alive just by the benefit of being very, very conservative in the techniques I practice.

I would contend that you are right were you are supposed to be...

https://medium.com/@zainabz/the-four-stages-of-competence-ee5c6046b205


4 years in and I’m still in that boat, but I love every second of it!

 

[LanceMac10]

@Owen Reich @Smoke

i agree with you guys, and have reached out to both of you directly in the past for advice out of respect for your knowledge and accomplishments

could i please ask, are you members in any other online forum? I ask because BonsaiNut seems to be a place where members expect that what should be exchanged is expert advice by experienced practitioners. maybe that’s overstated, but the standard does seem to be higher here than anywhere else (including medical forums...).

I am part of a few aquarium, garden and car forums. I can say with absolute certainty that the discussion there is a free exchange of ideas, opinions, and advice from members at all levels. the burden of deciphering which advice to follow, and which to ignore, is on the reader.

I’m not saying it’s a good thing that somebody with 2 posts might ask “when should i water my tree”, but this is a reliable place to be sent in the right direction (if not here, then where?). We all help people who are at that stage when we can, sometimes with wise-cracks where the newcomer gets not just the information they wanted, but the crucial insight that they could have found that information by reading on their own. And that was the biggest help that i personally received here: after 1 post i knew i had to read a lot, and start driving around the continent, if i wanted to learn. That wasn’t obvious to me at first. (and the guy at Home Depot, where I got my first tree, was not going to tell me that).

i would say that a lot of people use a *post* in this forum as google-search, and we are the engine that yields results both precise and great, vague and poor.

i ask a lot of questions here. About 6 months in i already knew that i could really trust every word from a dozen members, and that everybody else here was, like me, just a fellow human with a common interest and opinions that are as interesting, experienced and worth about as much as my own

Doesn't the bonsai subforum on reddit ask for a "resume"?

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Doesn't the bonsai subforum on reddit ask for a "resume"?

LOL does it?

 

[LanceMac10]

@jeremy_norbury and @music~maker I believe are members here and moderate there. They could explain it better, but it looks like you might get vetted some, which is interesting, to say the least.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

@jeremy_norbury and @music~maker I believe are members here and moderate there. They could explain it better, but it looks like you might get vetted some, which is interesting, to say the least.

I'm a member of the Reddit group. You gotta fill in your "flair" which is basically your zone and your years of practicing. The wiki for the subreddit gives you basic concepts for when you can consider yourself beginner, intermediate, etc. The mods are good guys and there are definitely people there with good trees. I think that subreddit sees a bigger influx and exodus of users on the regular as compared to this forum. A couple of beginner Facebook groups have started also and I see some familiar names and trees there too.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

Having a beginner’s mind will allow any of us to learn much more quickly than thinking you have Bonsai all sorted. I’ve worked with a number of 80 year olds who’ve “worked with countless masters” and still sucked at Bonsai on all fronts. As one of a few pros who post on this forum and others, I can say with certainty that I’ve learned from and made long term connections with forum members.

Making a Bonsai is easy. Making a truly excellent Bonsai is is quite difficult.

I will disagree with Smoke that the internet has ruined Bonsai, as I’ve met at least 100 people who now do Bonsai because of YouTube and blogs they’ve read. I will agree with Smoke on the keyboard hero’s that week one on here ask questions, and on week four are giving authoritative advice. The internet has also allowed anyone with an internet connection to spout off on their supposed Bonsai knowledge. This does present a major problem for beginners as there is so much to take in. To every beginner who asks me about this, I say the same thing. Before you believe someone, ask them to show you their trees, and proof they’ve kept them healthy and improved their designs. If they can’t, don’t listen to them.

Givin that when some Bonsai practitioners traveled a day and got hotel rooms just to hear a 3 hour talk on Bonsai 20-30 years ago and now reliable info can often be found with a quick google search, I’d say things have improved a great deal. The instant gratification “rights” that people seem to feel they have to get the secrets right away as Smoke wrote earlier drive me absolutely nuts. A little humility towards those that volunteer their time on here and elsewhere would do a lot of good. Paying an expert and listening / carrying out their advice is a quick way to improve. That, or helping out a more seasoned local whose Bonsai you admire. It blows my mind when people hire me and others then don’t do what we suggest. As an example, I once wrote out an annual fertility schedule for a whole collection and returned 6 months later to even more weak and hungry trees.

As a close to my rant, I’d say (free) Bonsai information quality is steadily on the rise, and the accessibility to qualified Bonsai instructors is as well. Access to material is much easier, although I’d say overall quality of field produced or otherwise human cultivated pre-Bonsai / Bonsai stock is getting progressively worse in America. We need more material produced with quality control in mind. I have little firsthand experience with the California community, but have seen nice cultivated trees from there. I’ve been everywhere else.

I'm looking forward to your deciduous materials talk at the next NBS meeting!

 

[rockm]

I'm a member of some Facebook groups. The pics I've seen through those feeds are OK, mostly just OK.

I am also familiar with Owen Riech's "master" 80-year-old bonsaiists. SOME of those people tend to be a bit rigid and unwilling to learn more. They have been making the same mistakes for decades and tend to adhere to the romantic idea of Japanese bonsai--which is just that --a romanticized Western view of bonsai.

I also agree that the 'net, like with most things, has leveled out bonsai. Everyone is basically "the same" on the 'net. Anything that smells like "authority' or actual experience is immediately questioned or discarded by a depressingly growing group in favor of anything "new" or that goes against "the rules." You have to read between the lines more.
On the other hand, the amount of quality trees, pots and everything else "bonsai" has increased exponentially and is quickly available. No more constant searching for stuff.

 

[Smoke]

I'm a member of some Facebook groups. The pics I've seen through those feeds are OK, mostly just OK.

I am also familiar with Owen Riech's "master" 80-year-old bonsaiists. SOME of those people tend to be a bit rigid and unwilling to learn more. They have been making the same mistakes for decades and tend to adhere to the romantic idea of Japanese bonsai--which is just that --a romanticized Western view of bonsai.

I also agree that the 'net, like with most things, has leveled out bonsai. Everyone is basically "the same" on the 'net. Anything that smells like "authority' or actual experience is immediately questioned or discarded by a depressingly growing group in favor of anything "new" or that goes against "the rules." You have to read between the lines more.
On the other hand, the amount of quality trees, pots and everything else "bonsai" has increased exponentially and is quickly available. No more constant searching for stuff.

You have summed it up. Owen didn't agree with my "internet ruining bonsai". I can see why. From his point of view the internet is good for bonsai. The internet can pull a much larger audience for a workshop or national exhibit than 25 years ago when you might see it in "Bonsai Today" magazine if you were lucky. The quickness in which we can vet trees from across the country for an exhibit cuts months and drudgery from exhibiting. We can see and compare trees from around the world and see in real time the new things happening while again, we used to have to wait till it came out in a magazine a year later.

On the other hand, the part I was talking about is exactly what we see here. I have belonged to clubs all my bonsai life. 35+ years. I have been officers in clubs and was the President of a Japanese Bonsai club for 6 years. I was an officer in a State level Bonsai Organization. In all that time, at the personal level, face to face contact, I have never run into people like I do on the internet.

You can't even hint at telling someone to stop wasting their time without some snowflake telling you to calm down. Well, here's the sad truth. Keep working that piece of shit tree for the next ten years. I can't see it from my house.

But, if you want to get better at bonsai, some of you better start listening to the people that have been willing to share, and have lots of trees posted here on the forum to look at. You can make up your own minds who has sound advice and those that just want to see their words on the screen for all to admire.

Oh...and one more thing. There seems to be a disconnect in why we come here. I hear time and time again...err..read that when confronted on the stick in a pot, that somehow they "just play with plants for the fun of it". "I just do bonsai for relaxation and I'm not trying to make anything great". I bought it thinking it could be a yard tree. Bullshit, your bought it and wanted to cut the bitch 10 inches from the ground. And when told it had no merit, it somehow became a yard tree purchase. Just admit you fucked up and lets laugh about it. That's what happens in a club setting, everyone has a good laugh and then they all get to work and help the guy out. Why are you people so pissy about being told you screwed up. Everyone screws up. I just don't post it here!!!!!!

One comes here to learn something or you wouldn't be here. Cut all the bull shit and just admit that you would like to see one of your trees really improve and turn into something. Work towards that goal. Stop harassing the people that just try to help but get so bogged down in your delivery rather than just doing the work. Do the work.

 

[0soyoung]

As far as I am concerned, most people are just a pain in the ass.
But it is all a matter of return on investment - getting enough in the way of insight, inspiration to make it worth putting up with the irritating behaviors. Nevertheless, I enjoy the interaction here, even with Al.

 

[Adair M]

As far as I am concerned, most people are just a pain in the ass.
But it is all a matter of return on investment - getting enough in the way of insight, inspiration to make it worth putting up with the irritating behaviors. Nevertheless, I enjoy the interaction here, even with Al.

What chu talkin’ ‘bout, Willis?

 

[Dav4]

 

[LanceMac10]

 

[music~maker]

Doesn't the bonsai subforum on reddit ask for a "resume"?

Lol, no, we don't ask for a resume, but we do have people set their "flair". Flair contains where they're located and their (self-evaluated) experience level. The location allows us to give them accurate advice without needing to continuously reply with "where are you located", and the experience level is so that when people receive advice, they can decide for themselves if the advice is worth taking.

If you see "trunk chop that down to the ground!", and that advice comes from a beginner, you'd probably give that advice a lot less weight than if it came from somebody who had tons of experience and had worked on hundreds of trees. That's a big part of why it's like that. It evolved over the years, and it's a very useful tool for running a sub-reddit of 90k subscribers.

One side benefit, too ... reddit doesn't give us a lot of ways to communicate with subscribers. If they try and post without flair, that gives us something to flag and we use that to send them a message that has the sub rules, links to the wiki, frequently answered questions, etc. So it's indirectly a communications tool as well.