About Princess Persimmon

[Bonsai Nut]

I’m kicking off my PP journey this winter. ~450 PP seeds just arrived.

FWIW, mine germinate quite late in the spring - like May. I remove the fruit from the trees in January or so - just so they don't get eaten by critters (I had quite a few eaten by deer last year). I keep the fruit on the seeds and keep the fruit/seeds in a ziplock bag in the refrigerator for the rest of the winter.

 

[Veebs]

FWIW, mine germinate quite late in the spring - like May. I remove the fruit from the trees in January or so - just so they don't get eaten by critters (I had quite a few eaten by deer last year). I keep the fruit on the seeds and keep the fruit/seeds in a ziplock bag in the refrigerator for the rest of the winter.

I was planning to put them in soil trays into a spare refrigerator in November because I was expecting to need 90-120 days.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I was planning to put them in soil trays into a spare refrigerator in November because I was expecting to need 90-120 days.

I used to just let the fruit sit on the trees through the winter until they were very soft - almost rotting - and then you could knock them off the trees and catch them in a bag quite easily. But there are too many hungry critters here who will eat the fruit once it is ripe (particularly how they are so obvious once the trees have dropped their leaves). One year I just left a ziplock bag full of fruit out on my bonsai bench - thinking it would naturally cold stratify - but something chewed into the bag and started eating the fruit so I moved it into the fridge.

Personally, I would avoid the soil trays, and keep them in a ziplock bag with a moist paper towel - with water and a little 10% hydrogen peroxide (to eliminate any fungus risk... which I do with any seeds in the fridge). Every couple of weeks check the towel to make sure it is moist - not soaking wet - but otherwise much easier than dealing with soil issues (mold, mildew, etc).

Here is what a tray of this year's seedlings looks like. I just counted, and even though it doesn't look like much, there are 32 in there. The seeds germinate in May... I can't seem to accelerate the process.

 

[Veebs]

I used to just let the fruit sit on the trees through the winter until they were very soft - almost rotting - and then you could knock them off the trees and catch them in a bag quite easily. But there are too many hungry critters here who will eat the fruit once it is ripe (particularly how they are so obvious once the trees have dropped their leaves). One year I just left a ziplock bag full of fruit out on my bonsai bench - thinking it would naturally cold stratify - but something chewed into the bag and started eating the fruit so I moved it into the fridge.

Personally, I would avoid the soil trays, and keep them in a ziplock bag with a moist paper towel - with water and a little 10% hydrogen peroxide (to eliminate any fungus risk... which I do with any seeds in the fridge). Every couple of weeks check the towel to make sure it is moist - not soaking wet - but otherwise much easier than dealing with soil issues (mold, mildew, etc).

Here is what a tray of this year's seedlings looks like. I just counted, and even though it doesn't look like much, there are 32 in there. The seeds germinate in May... I can't seem to accelerate the process.

View attachment 610870

Those are beautiful.

You do this with hundreds of seedlings at a time?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Those are beautiful.

You do this with hundreds of seedlings at a time?

Yes... but I have too many. I am getting ready to move all of these into my landscape - and they can survive or not as Mother Nature decides. Perhaps in 10 years I will wander out there and find a nice tree Because princess persimmon takes several years before they bloom, and then perhaps 1 in 10 are a female... you have to be a little crazy to propagate them. However that is what makes them special!

Hey - it could be worse. American holly (from seed) only 1 in 20 are female. People think of holly trees and think of red berries... LOL think again! Most are just prickly green trees

 

[NaoTK]

1st rule of PP is every tree you carefully wire and root work and make college plans for, will be a male

BTW mold is your biggest enemy with PP seeds. I recommend tossing them in diluted bleach prior to and periodically during stratification

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You do this with hundreds of seedlings at a time?

Oh, and I forgot to mention - that is 32 seedlings out of 100 sown seeds. I sow 100 seeds per flat - just keeping the math easy. 10 x 10 grid of seeds. You won't get 100% germination, and to be honest I have given up trying to wonder why. I just plant them and see what happens. Note - that planting mix is rough cut peat moss and pine bark fines. Very acidic, drains well, and tends to reduce the risk of damping off / fungus / mother-in-law visits

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Like a proud mom... my first ever female from seed.

 

[Goodbrake]

Like a proud mom... my first ever female from seed.

View attachment 614315

Very nice! How long did it take to fruit?

 

[NaoTK]

I finally got to meet Julien Adams at Nationals a couple days ago and chatted PP. He said "the best time to repot PP is never." I told him about my experiments in summer repotting.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Very nice! How long did it take to fruit?

I'd have to check my charts but the tree was germinated in either 2020 or 2021, so four or five years from seed. These are all in 1 gallon pots, so perhaps you'd get better results in a larger pot or in the ground.

 

[Goodbrake]

I'd have to check my charts but the tree was germinated in either 2020 or 2021, so four or five years from seed.

That's pretty quick from what I've heard from others. Did you do anything special or different with them?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

That's pretty quick from what I've heard from others. Did you do anything special or different with them?

Not that I am aware of. This year I noted that heavily fertilizing with MiracleGro water soluble appears to trigger flowering - even in the off-season. Whether that is a good thing or not is still to be determined (for example, if the trees that flower in the fall bear any fruit and/or if they flower again the following spring). FWIW I have some seedlings that have flowered as early as year three from seed - but none that have born fruit so far. My sense is that heavy fertilization helps trigger flowering sooner, and more consistently, than not fertilizing or fertilizing lightly, but that is just a hypothesis.

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

Congratulations!

7 years is usually the number I hear, so 5 years in a pot is pretty quick.

 

[yashu]

I was lucky enough to procure a male and female PP from Julian that I picked up at Nationals this fall. He told me that it was heavy with fruit by mid summer and reduced the fruit to less than half and suggested I reduce further. I ended up keeping about a third of the remaining fruit which still seems like quite a bit. I can’t imagine the plant with all the fruit Julian said were initially on the branches! The tree is a little bit boring with its ramrod straight trunk so I’d like to layer it at some point but am torn on the idea due to the risk of losing the plant. This might be one I grow and try to take smaller layers or cuttings down the road. I’ll have to go back through the thread and read up on layering and cuttings. Not sure which variety it is so I’d love to here thoughts on that.

This was the first bunch of fruits I removed.



Remaining fruit on the tree today



The leaves are starting to drop as the nights here in Maine are getting pretty cold now. Do you folks notice any autumn foliage color on your plants?

 

[Canada Bonsai]

The tree is a little bit boring with its ramrod straight trunk

You don't need a lot of movement in the trunk to make a persimmon (princess or yamagaki) that is nice to look at
I think you have a lot of branches to work with. Decide how tall and how thick you want this trunk to be, and start designing
You can double the height. You can cut back to a branch and use that as the new leader to develop a new trunk. You can take cuttings and plant additional trunks by the base (I would hold off because princess persimmon naturally tend to send up suckers, which you can use if the tree.)
Personally I'd wire the full length of the trunk into a kind of leaning but not quite banana shape, and just start working on the branches as I wait for suckers, probably ending up with 1 strong trunk and 2-7 sub trunks

 

[yashu]

Thanks @Canada Bonsai I appreciate the input and ideas. I’m in no rush so waiting is ok by me. My male plant already has several suckers coming up.

 

[boonefrog]

For commercial applications I would make a reusable thick plastic false bottom with a grid of evenly spaced holes. That way the root cuttings are already in a 2 inch grid instead of the gnarled tangle they will be without it.

I've got a bunch of female PP in nursery containers (#1-#3 size) that I'm planning to take root cuttings from at repot. I like your idea here for future production method though so I may try it with a few! One question: I haven't been able to find any guidance on minimum size root cutting that I should take for viability. Left to my own devices, I would guess anything about 3/16" and larger would suffice, but do you or others have info to the contrary?

I have had success LIGHTLY repotting PP any time from August to Feb, so will be planning to try this soon...

 

[NaoTK]

I have seen very thin roots take, like at or below 1/8". So if your goal is to propagate a lot of plants just save everything and throw it in a container and see what grows.

 

[boonefrog]

I have seen very thin roots take, like at or below 1/8". So if your goal is to propagate a lot of plants just save everything and throw it in a container and see what grows.

That's great to hear - thanks!