JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
What about Michael Ryan Bell, I don’t know many people who know as much about the particular art, and Matt Owinga is no slouch. I think certain non potters can have a POV that would be good to include.
2025 North American Bonsai Pottery Competition
- Thread starter snowman04
- Start date
Colorado
Masterpiece
Nobody is saying that a potter with command of glazes and clay but no bonsai experience should be judging the competition
It is just perplexing (to me anyway) why they would have other, arguably less qualified, judges when you already have Lang and Rayner.
Although I do think @WEI has some good points about judging awards in art, generally.
I have no dog in this fight. I’m not entering the competition. Maybe in 10, 20 years I would enter into something like this. I am just offering my 2 cents. I think that it should be judged by bonsai potters.
shohin_branches
Chumono
Pottery can be art but I would also say it's a craft that requires a lot of hands-on experience and execution to be able to make a quality vessel that is both beautiful and functional.
There are a lot of artists that make bonsai pots, but not a lot of artists that understand bonsai enough to make pots that will actually look good with a bonsai tree.
I also really like to see progression through a potter's career. Something made five or ten years ago is going to be very different from pots a potter made last week. My sister-in-law is a potter and I get a lot of bowls and dishes from her with a few planters in the mix and I enjoy seeing how much thinner and larger her wheel-thrown pottery is from when she started six years ago. Also what clay she's picked as her favorite now vs back when she was experimenting with different clays.
I appreciate pottery but I would never be able to judge a pottery competition.
There are a lot of artists that make bonsai pots, but not a lot of artists that understand bonsai enough to make pots that will actually look good with a bonsai tree.
This also made me really confused. How can the technical portion be determined through photos?
I also really like to see progression through a potter's career. Something made five or ten years ago is going to be very different from pots a potter made last week. My sister-in-law is a potter and I get a lot of bowls and dishes from her with a few planters in the mix and I enjoy seeing how much thinner and larger her wheel-thrown pottery is from when she started six years ago. Also what clay she's picked as her favorite now vs back when she was experimenting with different clays.
I appreciate pottery but I would never be able to judge a pottery competition.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Uh ok. Art “rules” are “rules” because the techniques do things to the human brains perception. Hate it all you want. Which is pretty silly
Ruddigger
Omono
It’s a blurry line between art and craft.
pandacular
Masterpiece
I read this thread, and wasn't sure whether I had an opinion one way or another. Then I happened upon a music critic who admitted to not like rap, and yet still wrote a retrospective on NWA for some reason.
*Note, this is not me arguing that bonsai or bonsai pottery aren't art, just that I think there is more consider with our understanding of competitions and awards
Here's a yard stick that is pertinent to this particular conversation: things that are most accepted as art don't really have competitions*
*Note, this is not me arguing that bonsai or bonsai pottery aren't art, just that I think there is more consider with our understanding of competitions and awards
littletreefarmer
Yamadori
We usually have a way of explaining natural phenomena and how we react to them far after we understand we experience them. This is off point anyways:
Anyone who thinks the "winner" of an art "competition" is the "best" has a lot to learn about art, and probably life for that matter. I'll bet this little contest has sparked a lot of people to make a lot more things in their workshops, though.
littletreefarmer
Yamadori
Be wary to write off the efforts or understanding of others due to your own limited perception. The judges will ultimately pick 3 winners per category and a people's choice. There will be tense discussion here, and contrary opinions in excess, I am sure. If only we could all be experts who are respected, trusted, and paid to judge these contests...
Ultimately, no one is forced to do anything they do not wish to do. If you do not want to enter or you will disagree with the outcome, save yourself the misery and don't enter. Mirai doesn't show trees much anymore.. Better yet, unsubscribe your brain from caring at all. If you have no contemporaries, why compete? Rock out rockstar.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I absolutely love bonsai containers... I would imagine I have a significantly larger collection than most. I have several close friends that are potters. I get great joy from finding the right pairing for my trees and compositions. However, I think you are putting much too much importance into what is essentially a frame for a tree/Bonsai. The container is there to compliment the tree in some way...that's its sole job...anything beyond that, including how its crafted is of far less importance. For me, if this competition doesn't include some high end Bonsai artists as judges such as Bill that can evaluate how a container is going to improve a bonsai it is totally missing the point.
Here is a question for you.... as a potter, if a pot you make never gets paired with a tree did you fail?
Ah...come on Judy... Those folks aren't potters...they don't know shit about bonsai containers
Ruddigger
Omono
Respectfully, I would think the ones putting the importance on the container would be the people who made it into a competition. I also think that your argument is a bit reductionist. Of course there are more important things than the appearance of the finished product, and saying that how it is crafted is unimportant takes away a lot from the potters.
Your question is an interesting thought experiment, and I imagine the answer would vary from potter to potter. Here’s another question, to flip your original one. Should Sara Rayner be judging bonsai trees at say the PBE?
Sure...if that is what the folks who run the show want... then, that is their choice. Furthermore, it would indicate to me, that the show hosts are giving bonsai potters far more credit that you are giving bonsai artists.
Ron Lang was the guest artist and judge at one of the final Carolina Bonsai Expo. He did a far better job than several of the bonsai folks that were selected for previous expos.
Just to be clear, I am not taking anything away from our beloved bonsai potters out there! I totally respect and admire their work. My argument is that bonsai containers and bonsai are intrinsically and aesthetically connected. No bonsai...no bonsai pots. To suggest otherwise is.... Honestly, should there ever be a contest/show that considers one without the other????
Yes, I have displayed bonsai without containers...kind of. It was well received and earned three awards... The intent was to put the focus entirely on the trees... I am not sure I would do it again. For the record, the containers were hidden by sinking them below the level of the top of the box.
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Ruddigger
Omono
Those are very cool. I remember a tree at the last nationals that had the pot sunken into the stand, to where it was only supported by the lip of the pot. And Hagedorn routinely exhibits trees sans pot. But, these aren’t what we are talking about here. Speaking of Hagedorn, he would have been a great choice, being a professional potter at one time and now a professional bonsai artist.
Look, I approach these things from a standpoint of what is best for the community. Is a competition like this good? Undoubtedly yes. It can help to raise the level of craftsmanship and artistry in America, in the same way that a good bonsai show or exhibition does. I enjoy the work from almost everyone involved here, but some potters can understandably have reservations about whether the judging will be an accurate reflection of the craft on more than a surface level.
Please know that I am not attacking anyone, I enjoy the dialogue and I don’t think I have been disrespectful in any of my posts. I think that intelligent discourse on these topics is only beneficial to the community in the long run.
YES. The Shohei Ohtani of bonsai
Sara tearing into a Mirai fanboy is what I want to see
shohin_branches
Chumono
How long have you been reading my diary!?
mwar15
Omono
I like the idea of the show. I think it being the first in a long time, it will have its imperfections. If certain potters don’t participate does it really validate the “winner”? I consider myself an amateur potter. I started with bonsai and then started making pots. I agree many pots out there are catchy to the eye but aren’t functional.
I probably will submit a couple pots and see what happens. I am not going to hand deliver them so who knows if the logistics work out if they get accepted. I also would take the winner of the contest with a grain of sat. I would look at it similar to a people’s choice award.
I think Hagedorn would have been a great judge. I have had him critic my pots multiple times and it helps a bunch.
I probably will submit a couple pots and see what happens. I am not going to hand deliver them so who knows if the logistics work out if they get accepted. I also would take the winner of the contest with a grain of sat. I would look at it similar to a people’s choice award.
I think Hagedorn would have been a great judge. I have had him critic my pots multiple times and it helps a bunch.
Gabler
Masterpiece
Does that reflect your opinion of Mirai, or is it just your opinion on Mirai fanboys?
Wow, awesome
Colorado
Masterpiece
We are discussing a bonsai POT competition. The pot is the whole point of this particular contest
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