Bjorn Apprenticeship

I don't understand the mentality of harshness when learning bonsai. It's like 5 years of military boot camp to learn how to care and style bonsai. I find this odd. Are there that many people wasting these artist's time that they have to make it so hard to weed out the chaff?

I saw what Ryan at Mirai went through in Japan and it disgusted me the way they treated him like some sub human person.

I would be serious enough when applying that treating me like this would turn me off from wanting to do this at all.

Anyone care to enlighten me?
 
I’m lucky I can apprentice on a Saturday, I wouldn’t be able to imagine halting everything and moving down there w 3 months no pay…. But that’s my opinion.. It’s modeled certainly off the Japanese apprenticeship. Other appprentices of American professionals certainly have more flexibility and accommodations. I know Hagedorn has something similar and lots of great practitioners came out of it .. but I do not believe it’s a 5 year program. Mirai it’s more like a job instead of the 3 months no pay .. this is all my opinion I have nothing but respect for Bjorn and his work. If I was 23 yes I’d apply, but at 30 I’m lucky I have a teacher to work for.
 
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Think for one's self
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No, not at all
painstakingly follow precise orders and directions.
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This.
Then you may think for yourself when you are on your own.

Otherwise, figure it out for yourself.


What you do, as a student earning a PhD, or as an apprentice of any trade reflects on your mentor.
You must make your mentor proud.
 
0soyoung said:
No, not at all

This.
Then you may think for yourself when you are on your own.

Otherwise, figure it out for yourself.


What you do, as a student earning a PhD, or as an apprentice of any trade reflects on your mentor.
You must make your mentor proud.
Click to expand...
It is aimed towards someone w the finances or a younger person post college.
 
What I simply dont understand is this:
**A majority of your educational
experience will require self-study, as verbal explication will be limited, so do not expect to be taught or for things to be spelled out and explained in detail.**

I thought the definition of an apprentice was someone who learn all the details of techniques and all aspects of a discipline from a professional while helping him for free.
I wouldn't be able to not share everything with a choosen apprentice and this is for any discipline.
There offer sounds more like the definition of a slave paying to work for free, while not learning the "why" giving more knowledge?!
Maybe I just dont get the condesendance or they make it look worse as it is actually but
Bonsai should be a way of life, not a punition or something you do to feel like you're nothing.

Maybe I have to learn from this...
Good luck to the candidates!
 
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Ugo said:
In there text what I simply dont understand is this:
**A majority of your educational
experience will require self-study, as verbal explication will be limited, so do not expect to be taught or for things to be spelled out and explained in detail.**

I thought the definition of an apprentice was someone who learn all the details of techniques and all aspects of a discipline from a professional while helping him for free.
I wouldn't be able to not share everything with my apprentice and this is for any discipline.
There offer sounds more like the definition of a slave paying to work for free, while not learning the "why" giving more knowledge?!
Maybe I just dont get the condesendance or they make it look worse as it is actually but
Bonsai should be a way of life, not a punition or something you do to feel like you're nothing.

Good luck to the candidates!
Click to expand...
pretty sure you don’t understand slavery

also, perhaps you have not made bonsai…your…. way of life
 
TN_Jim said:
pretty sure you don’t understand slavery

also, perhaps you have not made bonsai…your…. way of life
Click to expand...

Maybe...
I was using it to describe the exhausting tasks asked while being not considered.
I didnt want to offend anyone but that the first word that came throught my mind while reading the description.

No, for sure I didnt make bonsai my way of life.
Its part of my life, something I enjoy learning about and praticing but do I focus my entire life towards that goal, no.
Im 38yrs old, if this was a way of life I would have taken a different path.
I dont see the reason why learning should be negative. Take your previous comment for example, it is a constructive one that I could learn from but it contain a negative idea which can create the opposite reaction.
I still dont understand why it has to be presented this way.
Imagine if a professional like Bjorn would say it the other way around. If you prove that you can follow the path I will give you all my knowledge.
You really dont find that more engaging?

You're probably right its something I still have to learn.
 
Wulfskaar said:
Sounds a lot like they are trying to get free labor.
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I'm a fan of Bjorn, but when I read the description I thought the same.
In this day and age, this economy and housing bubble.. I think it's rather weird to do a Japanese style internship/traineeship where you're a slave to a master for a couple years.
I don't know the US labor laws, but there's a chance this might bite someone in the behind sooner or later.
 
I have to laugh a bit at the outrage here. Yeah, it's tough and yeah, it's free labor. BUT, this kind of thing is basically a path to your own bonsai business. What is in the job description is exactly the same thing foreign bonsai apprentices in Japan did (like Bjorn and Ryan Neal). They have capitalized on that relatively harsh experience to build their own businesses here using it as a marketing point. The apprentice at Bjorn's will be able to leverage his experience in the same way (not to mention probably gaining access to "inside" stuff, contacts, etc. in the position.)

I see the job description as weeding out the unserious candidates up front with dose of reality.

The Japanese model of teacher/apprentice model has always been a bit unforgiving and harsh. It's meant to harness humility and obedience into learning. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it is what it is. This "free labor" type of apprenticeship isn't limited to bonsai, FWIW. I have a friend who did an apprenticeship at a whisky distillery in Scotland for years. He took the summer to travel to the distillery and work long hours doing menial labor (as well as learning how to make scotch). He PAID for the privilege.
 
In my opinion the only way this would make any sense to do is if you're young, have a decent amount of money saved up, and are almost 100% committed to dedicating the majority of your life to bonsai. Otherwise it would be a waste of 5 years.
 
I don't think this is going to fly here... he may be able to do this in Japan, or with someone that would be "ok" with doing so, but if there is a complaint filed he's not going to do so well for sure.

www.workplacefairness.org

Apprenticeship Programs Rights | Workplace Fairness

Apprenticeship Programs Apprenticeships are an opportunity for workers to prepare for a career by working while getting on the job training and study. Apprenticeship is beneficial for both employers and employees. Apprenticeship programs provide employers with highly skilled workers who are...
www.workplacefairness.org www.workplacefairness.org

rockm said:
I have to laugh a bit at the outrage here. Yeah, it's tough and yeah, it's free labor. BUT, this kind of thing is basically a path to your own bonsai business. What is in the job description is exactly the same thing foreign bonsai apprentices in Japan did (like Bjorn and Ryan Neal).
Click to expand...
I completely agree with your statement... but the issue is that this is not Japan, and our labor laws are not the same. For example, Organized crime is not "outright illegal" in Japan, where the government regulate the Yakuza syndicates... try that with the gangs here in the US. There was a time in our history that apprenticeship was "free" labor, but that was a long time ago.
 
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Texasbonsai98 said:
if you're young, have a decent amount of money saved up, and are almost 100% committed to dedicating the majority of your life to bonsai. Otherwise it would be a waste of 5 years.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that is how you must be if you're planning on becoming a bonsai professional. Cameron (Bjorn's current apprentice) is planning on opening his own garden/nursery
 
Maiden69 said:
I don't think this is going to fly here... he may be able to do this in Japan, or with someone that would be "ok" with doing so, but if there is a complaint filed he's not going to do so well for sure.

www.workplacefairness.org

Apprenticeship Programs Rights | Workplace Fairness

Apprenticeship Programs Apprenticeships are an opportunity for workers to prepare for a career by working while getting on the job training and study. Apprenticeship is beneficial for both employers and employees. Apprenticeship programs provide employers with highly skilled workers who are...
www.workplacefairness.org www.workplacefairness.org


I completely agree with your statement... but the issue is that this is not Japan, and our labor laws are not the same. For example, Organized crime is not "outright illegal" in Japan, where the government regulate the Yakuza syndicates... try that with the gangs here in the US. There was a time in our history that apprenticeship was "free" labor, but that was a long time ago.
Click to expand...
Uh, If you volunteer for an unpaid position and know the conditions going in, it doesn't violate anything. There are literally THOUSANDS of unpaid internships for many organizations, do a search on Indeed...
There is a Dept. of Labor measurement for unpaid internships. I'd say This position arguably meets the criteria--
www.dol.gov

Fact Sheet #71: Internship Programs Under The Fair Labor Standards Act

www.dol.gov www.dol.gov

and FWIW, this has nothing to do with Yakuza and organized crime...It's a bonsai apprenticeship.
 
Ugo said:
**A majority of your educational
experience will require self-study, as verbal explication will be limited, so do not expect to be taught or for things to be spelled out and explained in detail.**

I thought the definition of an apprentice was someone who learn all the details of techniques and all aspects of a discipline from a professional while helping him for free.
Click to expand...

I wonder how much of the intended difference is "learning bonsai" vs "learning how to run a bonsai business". I imagine that a good grasp of the basics is required as a starting point

Michael Hagedorn also has a theory that "silent learning" is essential to parts of bonsai. Parts of his intensives are taught without words. I'm not explaining my recollection of this well, but I believe it's described in Bonsai Heresy
 
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