Hedge cut and branch thickening together...?

[fredman]

I'm busy growing out to thicken the lowest branch on a European beech....it's about a meter long at this stage, and needs to do some more growing to thicken. I also want to start doing hedge cutting to ramify on the rest of the tree. I actually want to cut back to the second node.
Being such a slow grower, the tree might be set back because of the growing out taking most of the vigor from the tree....?
The leaves has hardened off and the timing is right to do the hedge now...but i'm unsure if it's wise to do both together.
Any ideas plz...

Also...what is the best way to thicken a branch? Is it best to leave all side branches on it, or remove it so the branch extends quicker?

 

[Clicio]

A picture would help, I guess.
But...
I would first thicken the trunk, then I would chop it down, then I would think about ramification.
But... That is not my tree.

 

[luvinthemountains]

I'm busy growing out to thicken the lowest branch on a European beech....it's about a meter long at this stage, and needs to do some more growing to thicken. I also want to start doing hedge cutting to ramify on the rest of the tree. I actually want to cut back to the second node.
Being such a slow grower, the tree might be set back because of the growing out taking most of the vigor from the tree....?
The leaves has hardened off and the timing is right to do the hedge now...but i'm unsure if it's wise to do both together.
Any ideas plz...

Also...what is the best way to thicken a branch? Is it best to leave all side branches on it, or remove it so the branch extends quicker?

As I understand, when you remove terminal buds you decrease auxin action in that part of the tree. So by leaving the developing branch intact and hedging the rest, it seems that you are focusing the auxin in that particular branch which will lead to faster growth and thickening. By the same token, you should not remove sub-branching from your developing branch, because doing so will reduce auxin production in that branch.

As for European beech in particular, I think that you should be conservative but also that the tree will respond with growth. I have a prebonsai tree that I cut the top off of this spring, and it grew relatively well afterward. However, the tree was weak for the rest of the year, and dropped its leaves in a summer heat wave. Fortunately, it came back and should pull through the winter.

Somebody else more knowledgeable should clarify my response and/or set me straight.

 

[leatherback]

Effectively you are creating a sacrifice branch, except that you do not remove the full sacrifice, but just a part of it. I find myself more and more letting individual branches shoot out to thicken while working on the others. Be carefull. Beech beefs up fast so do not let it grow out of proportion. Thin beech branches are a luxury in my view.

 

[fredman]

Some pics of it. It's very healthy but in need of ramification. The second lowest branch needs more thickening...but it's almost there.
Bit of a different beech in that the trunk splits into two semi trunks halfway up the tree....3rd pic.








I just removed a bunch of leaves from the inner of the tree...so it don't shade the inside buds that much. Silly...I should've taken the photos after I did the leaf trimming.

 

[fredman]

First priority is obviously the thickening of the lower branch. My concern is the current top growth is 'slowing' the thickening...does that make sense to think that?
Also if I cut back the tree and the auxin flow starts, it might take away more growth from the branch I want to thicken....then again maybe not...? I've never done this so i'm unsure about what the best practice is...
Yeah I'm kinda in two minds about cutting back or not.

 

[AJL]

Nice Copper Beech with potential. I suggest delay cutting back the sacrifice branch for as long as it takes as to achieve thickening you want in it but clip the top growth which should redirect energy into the lower branch. If it was mine I would probably be ground growing it on for at least a couple of seasons which will boost the thickening overall.

 

[fredman]

I suggest delay cutting back the sacrifice branch for as long as it takes as to achieve thickening you want in it but clip the top growth which should redirect energy into the lower branch

That is my other contemplation that makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm actually halfway decided on doing that...just waiting on someone to stop me with a better idea...that makes more sense

 

[0soyoung]

First priority is obviously the thickening of the lower branch. My concern is the current top growth is 'slowing' the thickening...does that make sense to think that?

Yes.

Also if I cut back the tree and the auxin flow starts, it might take away more growth from the branch I want to thicken

You/it will be no worse off then than now


One cannot make the tree grow. It does that according to photosynthesis occurring in the branches. Left on its own most species/varieties tend to grow most strongly at the apex.

Hence, reduce foliage up top (prune, defoliate partially), the top won't grow so fast. Meanwhile, what you don't cut keeps growing. Quite simply, you 'hold it back' while the part of the tree (branch) you want to thicken is allowed to keep growing.

 

[fredman]

If it was mine I would probably be ground growing it on for at least a couple of seasons which will boost the thickening overall.

Interesting, this is from a 2m high tree I bought from a nursery. This is the middle section I air layered off. The top was a beautiful petite formal upright with exceptional taper and natural ramification. Some fucker came over my fence and stole it one night
Still have the thick ol bottom...don't really know what to do with it.
Yeah I had this in the ground to bulk up some as it was kinda skinny. But i'm happy with it so far....I prefer it more slender looking. It's actually thicker than it looks in the photos.

 

[fredman]

Yes.

You/it will be no worse off then than now


One cannot make the tree grow. It does that according to photosynthesis occurring in the branches. Left on its own most species/varieties tend to grow most strongly at the apex.

Hence, reduce foliage up top (prune, defoliate partially), the top won't grow so fast. Meanwhile, what you don't cut keeps growing. Quite simply, you 'hold it back' while the part of the tree (branch) you want to thicken is allowed to keep growing.

Thanks Oso...been waiting for you

 

[fredman]

And there it is...back on the bench

Thanks everyone

 

[Walter Pall]

I have had about 100 European beech in my life so far. They are difficult to make into a good bonsai. They have absolutely no talent to look like a bonsai. But to look like a real tree they can do well. Your beech is very good material for the Naturalistic Bonsai Style. It has an excellent nebari. This is extremely rare on beech from nurseries or from the wild. The split into two sub-trunks makes it a real tree away from the stereotype bonsai styling as informal upright. The informal upright form is not good for broadleaved trees whether deciduous or not. It would be the typical form of a pine tree.

What you have been doing is fine. If this were my tree I would continue to do what you did so far. I would leave this long branch as is and let it grow longer next year. It will have a tendency to move upwards. You have to pull him down with guy wires to prevent this. I would definitely not plant it into the ground. The tree gets out of control. If watered well with good well draining substrate and some fertilizing in full sun it will grow just as well in a container. Contrary to general advice I would let it grow freely in spring everywhere - no pinching! - cut back to two buds on the upper third of the tree after six weeks and let the rest grow freely. Eighth to ten weeks after bud opening I would defoliate the whole tree - this is contrary to general advice and can only be done on very healthy trees. Then I would be happy about back budding everywhere - also on the long branch. By end of summer next year I would cut back the second flush on top again to two buds. When the tree goes into dormancy I would then edit it carefully and cut off two thirds of this long sacrifice branch, Then in the following year I would let the tree grow freely again in spring and cut back the upper half of the tree after six to eight weeks. The lower part will grow freely again. In that year I would not do a full defoliation - only every two years and only if the tree is happy.I Then when the tree goes into dormancy again cutting back everywhere If you do this for five yours you will have a very good beech bonsai - which is a rarity. There should be definitely no repotting all this time. This would only throw back the tree for two years. After five years it will be much thicker, the lower branches will be comparatively thicker and the ramification will be much better. Throughout this process the tree will look kind of strange - no worries. It can also be wired with regular wiring and or guy wiring. You have to sacrifice monetary beauty for future quality. In five years it will shine.

 

[bwaynef]

If you want that lower branch to thicken, I'd wire the tip of it up.

 

[0soyoung]

If you want that lower branch to thicken, I'd wire the tip of it up.

Not necessary. Maybe do it if there is a space limitation.

A bud will pop at the top of the arch of @fredman's branch anyway - just like pegging roses.

 

[fredman]

I have had about 100 European beech in my life so far. They are difficult to make into a good bonsai. They have absolutely no talent to look like a bonsai. But to look like a real tree they can do well. Your beech is very good material for the Naturalistic Bonsai Style. It has an excellent nebari. This is extremely rare on beech from nurseries or from the wild. The split into two sub-trunks makes it a real tree away from the stereotype bonsai styling as informal upright. The informal upright form is not good for broadleaved trees whether deciduous or not. It would be the typical form of a pine tree.

What you have been doing is fine. If this were my tree I would continue to do what you did so far. I would leave this long branch as is and let it grow longer next year. It will have a tendency to move upwards. You have to pull him down with guy wires to prevent this. I would definitely not plant it into the ground. The tree gets out of control. If watered well with good well draining substrate and some fertilizing in full sun it will grow just as well in a container. Contrary to general advice I would let it grow freely in spring everywhere - no pinching! - cut back to two buds on the upper third of the tree after six weeks and let the rest grow freely. Eighth to ten weeks after bud opening I would defoliate the whole tree - this is contrary to general advice and can only be done on very healthy trees. Then I would be happy about back budding everywhere - also on the long branch. By end of summer next year I would cut back the second flush on top again to two buds. When the tree goes into dormancy I would then edit it carefully and cut off two thirds of this long sacrifice branch, Then in the following year I would let the tree grow freely again in spring and cut back the upper half of the tree after six to eight weeks. The lower part will grow freely again. In that year I would not do a full defoliation - only every two years and only if the tree is happy.I Then when the tree goes into dormancy again cutting back everywhere If you do this for five yours you will have a very good beech bonsai - which is a rarity. There should be definitely no repotting all this time. This would only throw back the tree for two years. After five years it will be much thicker, the lower branches will be comparatively thicker and the ramification will be much better. Throughout this process the tree will look kind of strange - no worries. It can also be wired with regular wiring and or guy wiring. You have to sacrifice monetary beauty for future quality. In five years it will shine.

Thank you for the elaborated answer Walter...much appreciated. I'll definitely refer back to it
Yeah I love the nebari to. I had it on a board when it was growing in the ground.
I'm always aiming for a naturalistic style...on all my trees. You're my inspiration there.

 

[fredman]

Yeah i'm very exited for this tree. I always told myself this can be a great tree someday. I chose it purposefully because of the split in the trunk...because I saw a big one here close by that grows like that.
Here's a closer view of the split.