Groundlayer after collecting

[Shibui]

My thought was whether I should prune some of the branches back, my concern is if there is too many branches that has to get supported, now that I removed all the roots? Hope you understand

I understand. The branches and new buds look just about right for the size of the trees. Even if there is a few more than the tree can manage they are usually able to sort that out for themselves. Sometimes I see a few small branches die on my transplants and I know that is the tree correcting the balance. In most cases there is a big range of what is OK and elms are pretty tough.

Now that I removed all the roots, the pot actually fits fine right now.

Fitting in and longer term health are 2 very different things. Everything is relative - top growth to roots, leaf mass to roots and water intake. A trunk this size needs enough space for new roots. It also needs enough space to hold sufficient water to last through a hot day in summer. You may also find that when the new branches grow the pot becomes physically unstable and starts to fall over all the time.
You may have the skills to manage good growth and health in a relatively tiny pot but I prefer to have more root room in the initial stages to allow for my less than diligent care while still getting a good response from the tree to allow for growing new trunk and branches.

Looking forward to seeing these as they grow and begin the journey toward great bonsai.

 

[Matte91]

I understand. The branches and new buds look just about right for the size of the trees. Even if there is a few more than the tree can manage they are usually able to sort that out for themselves. Sometimes I see a few small branches die on my transplants and I know that is the tree correcting the balance. In most cases there is a big range of what is OK and elms are pretty tough.

Ok. That sounds good! Do you think it will become a problem that some of the leaves has opened up? It happend about a week ago and I collected them yesterday.

Fitting in and longer term health are 2 very different things. Everything is relative - top growth to roots, leaf mass to roots and water intake. A trunk this size needs enough space for new roots. It also needs enough space to hold sufficient water to last through a hot day in summer. You may also find that when the new branches grow the pot becomes physically unstable and starts to fall over all the time.
You may have the skills to manage good growth and health in a relatively tiny pot but I prefer to have more root room in the initial stages to allow for my less than diligent care while still getting a good response from the tree to allow for growing new trunk and branches.

I hear what you say. There are space for the roots to grow new roots, not very much space tho, but some. The reason why I didn't placed it a bigger pot was because I was concerned that the roots would rot because of too much soil and too big a pot. I lost 3 Elms last spring because of that. So this year I placed them in a bit smaller pot. But again thank you for your warning. Lets hope the pot will be full of roots soon and then I pethaps can slip pot into a bigger.

Looking forward to seeing these as they grow and begin the journey toward great bonsai

Thank you hope these survive. Should I place them in shade for the next weeks?

 

[Shibui]

Do you think it will become a problem that some of the leaves has opened up? It happend about a week ago and I collected them yesterday.

It is normally considered best to collect before leaves open but in practice many species can still be dug even if a few leaves have opened up. Elms are one species that can cope with more than many. I think it will be OK.

Should I place them in shade for the next weeks?

I have found that straight into sun is OK but so much depends on local conditions. In some places full sun will be very hot and very dry. In others not so much. Most of my transplants go on the ground beside the nursery benches where they have good humidity from the damp ground and some shade for part of the day from the trees on the benches above.
I am not sure that shade is the key to survival. I feel that good moisture for the roots is probably much more important.
Partial,shade is probably a good starting point. Just be aware that any leaves that open in shade will not have UV protection so when you eventually move them into sun those shade adjusted leaves will burn. I try to keep shaded period to a minimum. Move to more sun when new growth looks strong but transition slowly if there are many leaves opened in the shade.
Again, most trees will cope with a wide range of sun/shade after transplant so there is probably no one rule that fits all trees in all places.

 

[Matte91]

OK. It's nice to get all the great information. I think it's a interesting subject and I also wan't the trees to survive this time with the new method. I dug many many trees with success before. But I had diffuculties with Elms because of the bad roots. Hope this method helps.

I think I will give them some morning sun then?

Moisture for roots, got it. I actually used Akadama, Pine bark and Spagnum moss as soil medium. That should provide good moisture I think.

Ever tried the black bag method in this case? Lot's of humidity and heat.

 

[Shibui]

Moisture for roots, got it. I actually used Akadama, Pine bark and Spagnum moss as soil medium. That should provide good moisture I think.

Ever tried the black bag method in this case? Lot's of humidity and heat.

I have never had any problem with elm transplants. Most have been suckers from roots of old elms. Some have had no feeder roots at all but have grown well after collection.

I have never used the black plastic bag. Sounds like it should work but some methods rely on the fact that the trees would have survived with or without that particular special factor. Mine do just fine without plastic bags but I can see it being useful in some areas. Something for you to try and report back on.

Spahgnum and akadama both retain a lot of water. Both together may be overkill but any soil can work provided yo tailor water to the soil. I have only ever used akadama once and found it was way too wet for my care and conditions. i have not used it since but still believe I grow reasonable bonsai. Akadama is not magic and may even be much overrated.

 

[Matte91]

@Shibui Here I am with one more question..
So far the trees look fine and grow new shoots. But one of the trees grow shoots with both fine green leaves and then some of the leaves has black edges. The same tree is the only one with long shoots from last year, the rest of the trees was pruned hard back in autumn.
Is the black leaves because of too much top growth vs. no roots to support it or something else perhaps? I was just curios whether I should prune the long shoots from last year hard?
Thank you

 

[Shibui]

Without a close up look at the leaves and the tree I guess it cannot supply enough water to all the new leaves. Usually the trees have ways to regulate growth to match the water available so some leaves will die so the tree can survive. I am not sure if pruning at this stage will help or hinder. We see lots of advice that new shoots are vital to help grow new roots so probably best not to trim all the long shoots now. If there are some that are obviously no use in future I might cut some out and leave others long until it recovers. I assume you left these long to check if there is a difference in survival rates by leaving long shoots? (or just did not get round to trimming?) I have never left lots of long shoots on collected elms so I'd be interested to see how it will respond compared to the others. Are you game to let it go for longer and see what happens?

 

[Matte91]

Without a close up look at the leaves and the tree I guess it cannot supply enough water to all the new leaves. Usually the trees have ways to regulate growth to match the water available so some leaves will die so the tree can survive.

I attached some photos in my latest post #26 of the tree and of the leaves. I think you are right about your theory, that was my thought too.

see lots of advice that new shoots are vital to help grow new roots so probably best not to trim all the long shoots now. If there are some that are obviously no use in future I might cut some out and leave others long until it recovers.

Got it.

I assume you left these long to check if there is a difference in survival rates by leaving long shoots? (or just did not get round to trimming?)

Actually I didn't prune this one because it was hidden under leaves and weeds and I was in a bit of hurry the day I went to prune them. So thats why all of them was pruned hard except of this one.

Are you game to let it go for longer and see what happens?

Yes of course. I leave it alone and then let's see what happens

 

[Matte91]

@Shibui
Update:
The trees has been looking great so far. But we had warm weather for the last week and the trees are starten to struggle. They are placed in shade.

Is it normal or am i losing the trees?

 

[Shibui]

The drying leave up top do not look promising but while there are still healthy ones there is hope. The dying leaves appear to be on one side which may indicate that one particular major root or part of the trunk has not survived. That's not welcome but is part and parcel of collecting. Not every tree will survive as we would like, despite doing the best.

 

[Maiden69]

While not necessary I found out from reading about tree collection (and a few videos of Mauro collecting oaks) that some trees would benefit from a "greenhouse-terrarium" environment. Depending on the season Mauro bags his collected deciduous trees to preserve humidity. I had a large oak cutting that was looking promising, nice callous and roots starting to develop inside an indoor greenhouse, I lifted the cover to mist and got distracted... the leaves at the top of the tree wilted like the ones in your pictures. I lost all the leaves, but I am keeping the cutting in the greenhouse to see if it recovers, I am not holding my breath on it.

 

[Shibui]

I had a large oak cutting that was looking promising, nice callous and roots starting to develop inside an indoor greenhouse, I lifted the cover to mist and got distracted... the leaves at the top of the tree wilted like the ones in your pictures. I lost all the leaves, but I am keeping the cutting in the greenhouse to see if it recovers, I am not holding my breath on it.

This may well be another case of linking 2 unrelated events as cause and effect. I believe it is very likely the oak cutting would have wilted whether or not the mist cover was left off as I believe that oaks are extremely difficult to root as cuttings. Much of our bonsai lore is based on similar one off events. Real knowledge is gained by trying the same thing again several times to prove beyond doubt cause and effect.

I have also seen the various experts touting the 'greenhouse' effect for collected trees. I collect quite frequently and still have really good survival rates without using bags or greenhouse so maybe all that stuff is also hype designed to attract attention from less experienced punters?? Does not seem to hurt survival but does it really help?

 

[Maiden69]

This may well be another case of linking 2 unrelated events as cause and effect. I believe it is very likely the oak cutting would have wilted whether or not the mist cover was left off as I believe that oaks are extremely difficult to root as cuttings. Much of our bonsai lore is based on similar one off events. Real knowledge is gained by trying the same thing again several times to prove beyond doubt cause and effect.

I have also seen the various experts touting the 'greenhouse' effect for collected trees. I collect quite frequently and still have really good survival rates without using bags or greenhouse so maybe all that stuff is also hype designed to attract attention from less experienced punters?? Does not seem to hurt survival but does it really help?

Yes they are, but the cutting was entirely green for 4 months until I left the cover off overnight. I think it had a good chance of success had I not left the cover off.

Here is a big factor, your experience. I don't think its fluff stuff, but extra precautions just in case absentminded person forgets to water or "place the lid back on".

 

[Shibui]

Yes they are, but the cutting was entirely green for 4 months until I left the cover off overnight. I think it had a good chance of success had I not left the cover off.

I have had cuttings of various species (not oaks) that had green shoots for up to 2 years (under mist and optimum conditions) but with no roots the outcome can only go one way. Success is not assured until roots have formed and that is not always related to humidity or care factors.

Here is a big factor, your experience. I don't think its fluff stuff, but extra precautions just in case absentminded person forgets to water or "place the lid back on".

Agree that while not actually necessary such 'extras' may just provide some improvement of conditions that may help in some small way where a good environment can't be managed otherwise. Anyone is perfectly free to add unnecessary extras to their regime if it makes them feel good.

 

[Matte91]

@Shibui
Quick update. One is still going strong and are showing new growth. This tree was not pruned before collecting (promised to update you on that)

The two other trees died for me. And they were of course the best ones. So that is pretty annoying.

I think the reason why they died is probably because I either pruned the roots too hard or because it rained for several weeks after collecting. I tried to protect the trees but the soil was constant wet for weeks.

Looking forward to spring to see how the nebari looks, on the tree that survived.

 

[Shibui]

The two other trees died for me. And they were of course the best ones. So that is pretty annoying.

Thanks for the update.
Unfortunately deaths are part of collecting wild material and, as you have found it is usually the best that don't make it. In many cases it is not so much about the actual collection or conditions after, even though it is tempting to try to blame those factors. Often success or failure lies with the tree's health and constitution. Remember that we are collecting individuals that have had a rough life either through their location or regular physical trauma. The ones we pick are usually not the healthiest or most vigorous trees in the woods so deaths should be considered part of the process.
If you are concerned about rain after collection being a factor I would look at (a) removing more field soil. I know many tell us to try to retain as much field soil as possible but we are also told that field soil is terrible in pots. I remove as much field soil as possible without further damage to roots before potting to reduce these problems and (b) consider the potting soil used. A well drained potting soil is almost impossible to over water. What works well in one area may not be suitable in a different climate so try soil modifications according to your local conditions.
I would not consider pruning roots hard, particularly of elms, a factor in death. My experience is they will still grow with little roots left after collection. By all means try some more with longer roots if it makes you feel better but sometimes that's not possible when the trees are suckers growing from really big roots of the parent tree.

It is great that you have had one success and that you are analysing the results and methods. Success usually increases with experience so good luck with future finds.