Pinching strong apical shoots on a developing JM

[Adair M]

You have to determine for yourself what stage the tree is in. If it’s “in development”, then the “let grow and cut back” method is the one to follow. If it’s in refinement, then pinching is the way to go.

As trees transition from “development” to “refinement”, then a mix of the two methods may be appropriate. You’re beginning to refine one section of the tree while still developing others parts. So some areas might get pinched and others don’t.

Only you can decide what is the appropriate approach.

 

[ajm55555]

@Adair M , the whole point of this thread was: I have a few strong shoots and the impression they're draining all the energy from other ones. Would pinching them help redirect some energy to the weaker ones or should I just wait and they'll have their share of sap anyway?

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M , the whole point of this thread was: I have a few strong shoots and the impression they're draining all the energy from other ones. Would pinching them help redirect some energy to the weaker ones or should I just wait and they'll have their share of sap anyway?

I can’t say. It depends on what stage the tree is in.

You certainly can pinch the apex and not pinch lower sections if you want. (Apex being strong and lower being weak).

 

[leatherback]

Would pinching them help redirect some energy to the weaker ones

I thought that was covered..

You would indeed reduce the top much stronger, and more frequent to get the bottom to catch up.

 

[ajm55555]

This is my inspiration.

 

[sorce]

Ask this gentleman of some of the trees he's been working on for a couple years. Or look them up yourself. Then decide if the visual net gained something you'll want to follow.

We have to stop believing this shit.

Just because @Forsoothe! May use this fact to an end we don't appreciate, it doesn't mean it's not a fact and can't be applied to our trees for a more personally pleasing end.

IF MACH5 decided to start his collection over growing from sticks, we wouldn't then change our minds about listening to him.

........

Of the tree....

It's no more than a numbers game.

Pinching the top will produce more apical shoots.
I'd be lopping large sections off.

For me, this is only upside down by about 60/40, so pinching may actually work, but that leaves you at 55/45 with the apical strength and summer to switch it.

So in order to actually gain ground and keep it.

I'd take it back to 20/80. This way by the end of summer you're still at 40/60.

It's easier to fix 10/90 than 90/10.

The values to these numbers are had with Observation of individual materials.

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

We have to stop believing this shit.

I am not sure I follow you here.

In general I believe in watching the trees someone has, grows develops. And if what they produce is pleasing to me, see what they do and learn. I think it is a bad idea to learn from people whose trees you do not like.

 

[_#1_]

We have to stop believing this shit.

Just because @Forsoothe! May use this fact to an end we don't appreciate, it doesn't mean it's not a fact and can't be applied to our trees for a more personally pleasing end

When a lot of his posts are shit post, someone has to point it out. Although his posts here sounds OK admittedly.

It does sound like he knows what he's talking about at a glance, but look at some of his 20 year old projects. They're nothing more than glorified pre bonsai. Crappy roots, underdeveloped trunk, some ramification. He even said his bonsai are houseplant bonsai. HOUSEPLANT

So what I was saying to all newbs myself included is; follow and listen to people who has trees you admire. Chances are their hort and design practice meets/exceed standard to get there. The guy talk about using potting soil, using pots that may not drain. Just water smart to remedy the shortcoming. Is that someone you should listen to as a newb?

With regard to OP question. Indeed I would listen and chop the top quite a bit to let most of the energy go to the bottom.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The OP wants a taller set of trees and has said so in so many ways it ain't funny. I do more verts than anybody else here for people that want something other than what they have. For people that kinda want to keep what they have, but need coaching to that end, I try to help them get there, wherever there is. When I pass negative judgements on ugly trees with no future, local pussy's hair burst into flames, but a whole series of people in this thread keep saying, "chop. chop, chop" as though what the OP wants doesn't matter. Help them, don't try to stuff "the right thing" down their throat.

 

[leatherback]

When I pass negative judgements on ugly trees with no future

Interesting. You are passing judgement. Calling other peoples trees ugly. And you are surprised people get annoyed?

Many of the posters here offer suggestions on how to make the OP tree on the long run a better tree. That is NOT the same as saying something is ugly. it is trying to increase someones understanding of the process of developing a bonsai. Especially when starting out it is important to learn which features you can develop later on (e.g., branches) and which are pretty much set if you do not tackle them early on (taper, movement in trunks).

Some people might be happy with a clump that will have a clear difference between trunk dynamics and branch dynamics after decades. Some might be OK with forests which look like they were planted last year. And some prefer to spend longer with a project in the development, to in the end have a mature cohesive design.

 

[sorce]

I think it is a bad idea to learn from people whose trees you do not like.

follow and listen to people who has trees you admire

I see this based on a misunderstood Forsoothe, no worries, I see it a lot, in fact, I had to adjust my relationship with him because I was on the dumbass hate ship until I realized who this person actually is. Honest, Kind, (if in Michigan ribbing style), willing, helpful....

No doubt he plays devil's advocate a bunch....

No doubt there may be a better collection....

But that doesn't change the fact that pinching those tips will reduce their vigor and not leave stumps, of which he stated his opinion, he doesn't like them.

Reread it all, it's all just facts to guide OP with his tree, none of it even has potential to make this tree look like a Forsoothe tree....

The only place that potential peeks it's head is when you'se tell OP to go look at Forsoothe's trees.

The only time following someone who's trees you admire works, is with the same material, exactly all the same care, same timing, same wintering, same location...

It's near impossible for this to work over the internet.

I look at Forsoothe's Lush Garden, and seperate what information leads to that, and know it's what I can use.

This, "follow people who's trees you admire" shit is for needy people who are looking for followers, people trying to compensate for other things they are missing in their life.

Real leaders don't need to spread this truly stank Bullshit to be followed.

Be smart enough to follow Forsoothe into his garden and not his mini forest, or at least leave it up to other people to decide for themselves.

It's kinda rude this is.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

For the record, I always considered ajm55555 to be equal at this as all of us.

But that's just my opinion.

Sorce

 

[_#1_]

"chop. chop, chop"

To get "taper", you do want to chop 2/3, 1/2 of the trees desired height. Let grow till new leader transition better with trunk. As stated earlier. Look at the gentleman's trees and see for yourself if you want to emulate him.

 

[leatherback]

the fact that pinching those tips will reduce their vigor

I think I was pretty much the first to confirm that this is a route to go?

This, "follow people who's trees you admire" shit is for needy people who are looking for followers,

I disagree.
My view: If you want to learn something, learn from people that do it the way you want to be able top do something.
This has nothing to do how Forsoothe does things, and whether I like it or not. There are people who do things to trees I do not understand, and do not like. I do not like all trees with huge carving on them. As such, I will not quickly be taking classes from people who mostly have trees that have huge hollows.

I look at Forsoothe's Lush Garden, and seperate what information leads to that

Which is pretty much what I am suggesting.. If you like what you see, look at what they do. if not, do not.

 

[sorce]

Truther ......

I know that we are all on closer brainwaves than we realize.

That's how come we argue.

I've had similar things with each of you, that we get through, unlike the Actual Narcissists who bitch out.

You ever feel like a Narcissist Magnet?

I do.

It's because we share very similar traits that get confused and amplified without the all important body language.

Watch a video about body language then how Narcissist body language compares.

Enlighten Yourself.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

One time on FB, I told a guy he may be getting the negative responses on his posts that he was because of his Avatar Pic, it was threatening.

Whereas, the dude with open arms, a beer, and friends in the pic ALWAYS got good response.

That simple shit makes a difference, pay attention to it, and we will be able to make better trees.

Sorce

 

[ajm55555]

For the record, I always considered ajm55555 to be equal at this as all of us.

Thank you @sorce , thank you everyone. I think the biggest misunderstanding here is you all considering me like any of you.
I don't have 1/100 of the experience you guys have.
I'm just a guy who loves to have a miniature copy of a tree I see in Nature, on my balcony.
I love the idea of being able to keep it alive, let it do its own growing and enjoy it through the seasons.
I actually get a useful bit of information from every reply you wrote.

As far as this tree is concerned, I simply do not have the guts to chop anything right now. But your comments convinced me to look at it under different angles and maybe, in the future, I'll change my mind.

I think I'll make a short video of it from all angles and put it on YouTube so you can see what I see ;-)

 

[Forsoothe!]

In the, "Here we go again" mode, I may not have trees of @MACH5 or @Adair M form, but I don't have their money and the people that I advise here don't, either. Those kinds of people can buy what they want, and God bless them. I have posted so many photos it's embarrassing, but here's what I think is closer to what the OP wants...

Assembled in ~2004 from seedlings in my yard. My seedlings, my training, my soil, not wired-in, on a 20" sq. occasional table I shortened to 5 1/2" high, on a mat cut from a reed /widow shade. My way.

 

[_#1_]

Reread it all, it's all just facts to guide OP with his tree, none of it even has potential to make this tree look like a Forsoothe tree....

Think about the volume of net resources you are removing when you pinch. Peanuts. Plus, you don't have blunt ends to your branches to cover with ramifications that take time to accomplish. It's an easy choice for me, I don't like stumps.

Implicitly suggest to work on ramification (refinement) while not knowing if tree is still in development stage?

From what I gathered, that's the gentleman's MO. Forget the base and trunk. Make some ramification and the tree is set.

I think Adair was the only one that asked about the tree's developmental stage...

EDIT: well there you go. In 15 years. Sometimes you can't see the tree from the forest . And you don't need a million bucks to grow nice trees. But time you do need.

 

[leatherback]

As far as this tree is concerned, I simply do not have the guts to chop anything right now.

fair point. I think we haev all been there.

Just keep in mind, each and every person is trying to make you see a route forward. And each person has their own optimal endgoal in mind. Pick what you are comfortable with. In the end, you will look at the tree most often.

I don't have their money and the people that I advise here don't, either. Those kinds of people can buy what they want

What does money have to do with the discussion on how to bring a tree further?

This weekend I got 2 new trees. Both my cheapest (free) as my most expensive tree (clearly not free). And I am equally happy with both.