Is mycorrhizal inoculant helpful to bonsai trees?

[Bonsai Nut]

Myc is not bacterial. It is fungal

And mycorrhizae does not describe any specific species of fungus. Rather it describes fungus that grows in association with a plant in a symbiotic relationship.

If you want to see mycorrhizae, just take pine bark nuggets, fill a pond basket with them, and water regularly. Voila! It is getting mycorrhizae to grow in mainly inorganic conditions that becomes challenging. Not impossible, but just more difficult. I think organic fertilizer works better in this respect, but I have plenty of mycorrhizae in some of my pots using chemical ferts. I just believe you need to err on the side of weak fertilizers used frequently than stronger fertilizers that can burn micro-organisms.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

surprised nobody mentioned recent mirai podcast with ian hunter, all about this kinda stuff

https://bonsaimirai.com/node/741

 

[0soyoung]

Soil science says organic fertilizers will feed fungi and chemical ferts will destroy it.

Not quite correct.
The key is phosphate. High phosphate levels discourage/destroy mycorrhizae.
Phosphate has low mobility in growing media. The principle benefit of mycorrhizae is that it transports phoshphates to the tree, thereby helping it to thrive. Otherwise, the tree's roots must grow further to find phosphate but cannot so readily. Phosphate is essentially the energy currency of plants --> ADP/ATP.

--> micorrhizae linda chalker-scott

 

[Ohmy222]

Is it always visible? I assume if there are numerous types then it would be unlikely to always be the same cosmetically. Seems possible there is some we just don’t see.

Either way I only care if the tree is healthy. If it is then don’t care.

 

[wireme]

Is it always visible? I assume if there are numerous types then it would be unlikely to always be the same cosmetically. Seems possible there is some we just don’t see.

Either way I only care if the tree is healthy. If it is then don’t care.

You’re right there are different types and not always visible. There’s endo myc, endo meaning inside and ectomyc, ecto meaning outside (among others) . The endo resides mainly inside the roots and may not be visible, probably will not be. Many of the products are endo based, quite often a single species Glomus intradices. ( Its quite common for a company to have a product labeled for shrubs and another product in smaller more expensive bags labeled for grasses but if you read the ingredients it’s exactly the same damn thing, G. Intradices.) Glomus species are said to have very little plant specificity, associating with maybe 90 percent of plant species worldwide in all types of soils. So if someone wants to add an endo product it most likely will be compatible to the tree and aside from the immediate germination into the soil you will probably never see it.

Ectomyc’s have much more plant specificity, mainly conifers and quite a few others like notably oaks. A random ectomyc is less likely to be compatible but a person can always read the ingredients and look it up to cross reference if they really want. Ecto is usually very visible in coarse soils, in very fine soil the mycelium may be so fine that it’s hard to see. In my opinion I think the best use for innoculants is disease suppression for seedlings and/or cuttings in a container growing setting. Especially tender herbaceous or disease prone types of crops. I’m skeptical about using it with bonsai for reasons that would require too much thinking and writing to get into but it does have its place in horticulture for sure. Many, many studies showing benefits in a variety of situations especially situations that are in some way adverse to begin with.

 

[wireme]

There’s a huge market for these mycorrhizal products and everyone who grows anything at least knows the word (but usually not how to spell it). What’s less popularity known is that the above ground tissues of plants also have the same types of symbiotic associations. Fungal, bacterial, endo and ecto, organisms that can fix nitrogen out of the air, provide disease resistance etc...

It will be the next big thing, foliar innoculants, can we start now before it’s popular and make millions somehow? You guys probably think I’m nuts but I’ll bet that within the next five years Mirai will have a podcast on the subject, household word and multimillion dollar industry? Ten years maybe.

 

[AaronG]

surprised nobody mentioned recent mirai podcast with ian hunter, all about this kinda stuff

https://bonsaimirai.com/node/741

That honestly raised more questions for me than answers. There seemed to be a lot of theory in there about what might be good for bonsai trees. Of course, I was listening while doing something else so I may need to relisten.

 

[AaronG]

Myc is not bacterial. It is fungal, Fungus, like mushrooms, spread by spores on the wind. Which is how myc finds its way into bonsai pots. The nursery business HAS found out about myc. They're making money on it, selling supplements.

Thanks, that answers how they get there. I still don't understand why they can be seen in some pots and not others. I think the reason I said bacteria is because after reading about the symbiotic relationship, I started thinking of them like gut bacteria for a plant. And we are still discovering the benefits of those in the body.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

That honestly raised more questions for me than answers. There seemed to be a lot of theory in there about what might be good for bonsai trees. Of course, I was listening while doing something else so I may need to relisten.

raising questions (and not answers) was definitely the purpose of the podcast, but isn‘t that a perfect response to the initial question of the thread?

for the moment, despite varied opinions, we don’t have (m)any hard facts for the hobbiest or things that people can observe or control on their own at home, so (as Ryan will do himself) it’s safe to keep using regular soil and keep an eye out for innovations to come during the next decade LOL

 

[Potawatomi13]

Do you let them dry out all the way between waterings?

NO! Unless wishing to finish off tree that day/

 

[Shibui]

I still don't understand why they can be seen in some pots and not others.

I find that if the mix is on the dry side the hyphae (threadlike part of the fungus that we can see in the soil) are quite obvious but if the same mix is well watered I cannot see the hyphae easily, even though I know they were there yesterday.

I understand that fungal associations help the trees collect scarce nutrients from poor soils. In bonsai culture readily available nutrients are supplied (by us) regularly so the trees don't actually need the fungal association.
It was standard practice many years ago to add some of the old mix when repotting pines. I stopped doing that when I found a seed tray packed with mycorrhiza and I had not added any. Obviously it has the ability to spread and propagate itself and will colonise suitable habitat. All my pines have plenty in the pots after just a couple of weeks whether I put it there or not.
Like others, I regularly use chemical liquid fert and there's still plenty of mychorriza in the pines here.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Let me add that most scientists still aren't completely sure if mycorrhizae are symbiotic or more like a hostage situation. There have been quite a few reports pointing in both directions; if the fungal community is forced to choose, it will drain the tree and provide nothing in return.
So when food is abundant, and when food is scarce, there seems to be symbiosis benefitting both. When food is absent, it's a hostage situation with a negative outcome for the tree.
Fungi don't need a lot to thrive thankfully.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

As mentioned, the necessary symbiotic fungus will show up on its own in healthy trees. I do tend to leave a little (or add some old soil containing it) to the new soil with pines. Somebody here experimented with adding some and it went a bit nuts. Was it @cmeg1...?

 

[cmeg1]

Was it

Yea, it was this product and it did clog the soil a little more than I would want.Terribly expensive too.

 

[just.wing.it]

Yea, it was this product and it did clog the soil a little more than I would want.Terribly expensive too.

Wow!.....hey at least it works, lol!

 

[cmeg1]

Wow!.....hey at least it works, lol!

It only works to this effect in open soils.

 

[GGB]

Not quite correct.
The key is phosphate. High phosphate levels discourage/destroy mycorrhizae.
Phosphate has low mobility in growing media. The principle benefit of mycorrhizae is that it transports phoshphates to the tree, thereby helping it to thrive. Otherwise, the tree's roots must grow further to find phosphate but cannot so readily. Phosphate is essentially the energy currency of plants --> ADP/ATP.

--> micorrhizae linda chalker-scott

I swear I know that. But I was trying to be brief, and in my condensing I kind of meant typical cheap chem ferts with wildly high numbers, like I USED to use. It's a conversation that requires solid sources and big responses. I was trying to keep it light for someone just getting their toes wet (the OP). I have a lot to learn but I know more about (some) things then I let on here because I could talk forever haha

 

[Ali Raza]

@rockm it means you are suggesting that myc inoculant will not be much beneficial if applied. I got one small sachet of myc and i was planning to apply if it is of any use. But now it seems i don't have to. What you say ?

 

[Adair M]

I have never added any myc to my soil. It just appears in the pot.

I used to put a bit of the old soil in when I repotted. I don’t any more. I haven’t in 8 years.

 

[Ali Raza]

I have never added any myc to my soil. It just appears in the pot.

I used to put a bit of the old soil in when I repotted. I don’t any more. I haven’t in 8 years.

When i repotted my pines in inorganic well draining soil from nursery soil, I left 30% root ball intact. Hope there is myc growing and doing there work. But @Adair M if there is no myc in the soil what are the symptoms or how do we know ?