Aaronkslater
Yamadori
Rockm, I think you are not understanding my meaning. Thanks for the discussion everyone, I'm learning a lot.
nontraditional and postmodern bonsai
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I'm sorry Aaron but you are dodging the issue. Saying we don't understand your meaning is almost a demeaning as telling us that we don't know what the H we are doing. Do you really think you are the only "Artist" to come along and preach the same sort of stuff. It escapes me why you would want to do that. Never-the-less- here you are lecturing us on art. The simple fact of the issue is this: If you are going to tell us about art and bonsai you had better be able to post a picture or two of "Your own trees". I don't care how good they are just that they ARE.
It is my suspecion that your presence here is nothing more than an off-handed way of promoting your web site for your glass work. You probably care as much about bonsai and I care about glass work. I would love to be wrong.
It is my suspecion that your presence here is nothing more than an off-handed way of promoting your web site for your glass work. You probably care as much about bonsai and I care about glass work. I would love to be wrong.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Can we go back to talking about fertilizer, or pinching vs. snipping, or, ahh yes, SOIL mixtures?
I get SO SiCK of endless, pointless, blathering about bonsai as art. It reminds me of the endless, pointless blathering we photographers went through in the '60s on whether photography is/was/may be art.
It doesn't matter -- then, or now. WE will not be the ones who decide.
I get SO SiCK of endless, pointless, blathering about bonsai as art. It reminds me of the endless, pointless blathering we photographers went through in the '60s on whether photography is/was/may be art.
It doesn't matter -- then, or now. WE will not be the ones who decide.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I get sick of the endless blathering of those who blather about the endless blathering about bonsai as art (or whether literati trees are "simple" or "simplistic" - recognize anyone, Jim?) If you don't like the topic or feel it's been "beaten to death", why don't you just stay out of it? We all know how you feel about these issues by now.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
tantric
Yamadori
i'm replying to all comers, really. i don't expect you to be impressed with japanese aesthetics - i expect you to know it. i demonstrated what i did to show you that although i don't have the experience in growing and shaping trees, i do understand the art behind it. and respect it. and i think i might respect it more than some traditionalists here.
if you take an example of a perfect bonsai from whatever period in japanese history that shows all the qualities of wabi-sabi and make an exact copy, down to ordering a perfect pot from some kiln in japan, have you captured wabi-sabi? no. you've aped it. if you grow a tree of your own according to the same principles and put it in a home depot pot that's stained and chipped, you're much closer. perhaps there isn't much zen left in bonsai. the aesthetics and principles that are intrinsic to bonsai are not dead things. zen, and the associated aesthetics, are alive and blooming. i'm an american buddhist, working to create a new flower in this strange garden. i've read everything from the tripitaka to dr. suzuki to 'hardcore zen' and i respect all of it. but pretending that i'm in asia a thousand years ago is of no use to me, or the american buddhists who will follow. it's my job to adapt those traditions and create new ones.
if you see the buddha come walking down the road, hit him with a stick. it means a lot of things, but part of it is that when you want to learn something, don't get obsessed with trying to emulate the teacher. learn the lessons and understand them, then the rest will flow. i'm here to learn the lessons, and i'll make many very traditional bonsai before i branch out - but all of mine will be in home depot pots or other such found items. the whole point of this is to apply zen to life, to make gardening a lesson on the path to enlightenment. if that makes me a heretic, well, it's about time zen got back in that position, it's where we belong.
i'm thinking about starting seeds from entheogenic trees because it will take them years to get to where they need shaping, and i can care for the seedlings now. i should be ready to shape a seedling by then, one would hope. right now i'm just airlayering and bringing in plant or two. i have time, and it's the doing, the moment that matters, not some distant goal
peace
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
This is beautiful and dare I say passionate- no I don't want your phone number.
But I believe bonsai is both art and craft- I believe being a craftsman takes skill and practice and dedication.
I do paint but I am not a painter
I enjoy painting but I am not an artist
In my own mind it is enjoyable and that is all I need it to be.
Being an artist requires creativity and I see both skills and creativity when I look at the trees posted on this forum.
When I think of the quote I have just referenced - I think my profession must also be my art- I never thought of it this way. I manage people for a living.
It takes time, and training and focus and patience. Wow
A Random User
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OK... I am going to say this with the utmost respect here... cause I appreciate your enthusiasm.
Dude, you are trying to cross 5 bridges at one time. Just first learn how to do and make Bonsai, first.
I mean, you are kinda putting the cart before the horse here... You are describing how you are going to do bonsai, and
your approach to it, and your views about bonsai, and how others are in error, but yet as far as I can tell, haven't actually even done bonsai.
I mean with this kinda logic, I am going to be a famous basketball player, who will not sign a deal for less than 100 million dollars a year, I will have shoe contracts with all the various companies, and require that my name be put before my teams name at all times, when mentioning the team I am on, yet I have never owned a basketball, don't know how to play, and don't know the slightest thing about the rules... I mean this is just silly, Right? I mean, before I set up my self for failure, I should at least figure out how to play.
Then later one can bring all the hocus pocus into the mix. I mean if you want to be an American Buddhist, who wants to buy crappy stained and chipped pots from the home depot, have at it! I am sure home depot will be happy, which is very "Zen".
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tantric
Yamadori
my goals are not preposterous - that bit about basketball is wild hyperbole . just because i have an idea and talk about it doesn't mean i'm planning on doing it tomorrow or even years from now. i plan on roots on rock over a brick (starting a few months from now), and i'd like to order some seeds of tropical trees to get started. in the mean time, its air laying and garden center stock for practice, til my own seedlings are ready years from now. how is that getting ahead of anything?
the above, unlike any of the rest of this, alarms me. i'm not sure where to start - i showed the pics...again..
the pot on the left is a normal bonsai pot. it might have even been made in japan, but not only is it not old, it shows no signs of having been used. it may very well be a perfect replica of a famous bonsai pot, even made in the same manner, but i doubt it - it would cost a lot more. fine - it's a beautiful bonsai pot, but it's not wabi-sabi even if the original were. wabi-sabi includes rustic simplicity, economy, modesty, sincerity and authenticity. you can't buy that on e-bay. the original pot, cherished for design and functionality by its owner, was wabi-sabi but it's not something you can copy the form of and include the spirit.
wikipedia basic:
Wabi now connotes rustic simplicity, freshness or quietness, and can be applied to both natural and human-made objects, or understated elegance. It can also refer to quirks and anomalies arising from the process of construction, which add uniqueness and elegance to the object. Sabi is beauty or serenity that comes with age, when the life of the object and its impermanence are evidenced in its patina and wear, or in any visible repairs.
so yeah, i'm going to go on using my pots. i admit i don't know how to grow and train bonsai, but i *grok* zen aesthetics.
A dirty pot is a dirty pot..
Sure you can see the beauty of stains and dirt on it but thats just overdoing it
And if you think this pot will give you a better look on your to be bonsai.. I dont think so.
Perhaps you can use the nice pot in your post, use this and by the time your seed turns into a bonsai this will be a used pot, with chips from falling from the bench that time the neighbours cat came say hello.
Hell you can even fix it with gold if it breaks into pieces.
Would you fix the crappy home depot one?
Wabi sabi is about beauty in imperfection however its not just about the most worn out thing you can find. Treasure the value behind it.
On a side note, wasabi is also a good match with meat like a steak.
You bake your steak, put little wasabi on it and eat, mmmm nice
Sure you can see the beauty of stains and dirt on it but thats just overdoing it
And if you think this pot will give you a better look on your to be bonsai.. I dont think so.
Perhaps you can use the nice pot in your post, use this and by the time your seed turns into a bonsai this will be a used pot, with chips from falling from the bench that time the neighbours cat came say hello.
Hell you can even fix it with gold if it breaks into pieces.
Would you fix the crappy home depot one?
Wabi sabi is about beauty in imperfection however its not just about the most worn out thing you can find. Treasure the value behind it.
On a side note, wasabi is also a good match with meat like a steak.
You bake your steak, put little wasabi on it and eat, mmmm nice
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Tantric.
You haven't the foggiest idea about bonsai. Do you?
Hell, I can order some of that Wasabi at any Japanese restaurant!
You probably ordered yours online though. Got yourself some Japanese culture under your belt.
You can have all of that though. I'll be sticking with the parts of Japanese culture I like. Bonsai and Godzilla. Isn't Wabi Sabi the goo from between Godzillas toes.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
You haven't the foggiest idea about bonsai. Do you?
Hell, I can order some of that Wasabi at any Japanese restaurant!
You probably ordered yours online though. Got yourself some Japanese culture under your belt.
You can have all of that though. I'll be sticking with the parts of Japanese culture I like. Bonsai and Godzilla. Isn't Wabi Sabi the goo from between Godzillas toes.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Dude, for a Buddhist, you are pretty aggressive and confrontational. Not to mention pretty clueless about bonsai. We don't care if you're using crappy dirty pots from Home Depot. We REALLY don't. FWIW, dirt and algae accumulated from neglect is not wabi sabi. Patina accumulated on an old pot that is well cared for and used--IS. Until you know the difference and how they are achieved in bonsai, (not to mention the difference between a tokoname production pot and a higher quality one-off from a skilled potter who doesn't "ape" old styles as much as keeps making what works visually) your "explanations" for us are kind of tin-eared and ego-centric. What's Buddhism have to say about pride and self-regard?
And yeah, you CAN buy rustic simplicity, economy, modesty, sincerity and authenticity on ebay. You just have to know who to contact and what to look for, not to mention have a stack of cash--which most of us don't. Bonsai is "zen," but if you stick around, you will find that it's also a living breathing BUSINESS in Japan and elsewhere. What you think is sacred and sacrosanct, is pretty much commercial in Japanese (and western) bonsai circles.
And yeah, you CAN buy rustic simplicity, economy, modesty, sincerity and authenticity on ebay. You just have to know who to contact and what to look for, not to mention have a stack of cash--which most of us don't. Bonsai is "zen," but if you stick around, you will find that it's also a living breathing BUSINESS in Japan and elsewhere. What you think is sacred and sacrosanct, is pretty much commercial in Japanese (and western) bonsai circles.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
At this point you come along here and start preaching at how off track we are at doing bonsai, so according to you I have been off track since 1957. You have not earned the right to tell us anything. Just a look at the pots you singled out proves that. You dude, are a legend in your own mind, the only thing you have going for you is an unrealistic dose of hubris. It's a good thing you don't have aspirations to fly.
Someone said that ideas without efforts to make them happen is fantasy. So until you can grow a bonsai or better still make a bonsai why don't you put a cork in it. Trying to use the "I'm going to grow from seed! is a very clever dodge but it is also dishonest for one who seeks to do things the way the ancients did them. Maybe you should take look at how bonsai has been grown over the centuries. Growing from see has only entered into the equation sionce those evil capitalistic merchants and commercial growers needed a way to cultivate trees they could no longer collect from the mountains. Collecting from the mountains______? Now that's a zen like pastime. Why don't you go and do that------ and then come back and tell us how bonsai is done. You can talk about philosophy and zen and all manner of esoteric crap but that's just about all it is.
In the end you are nothing more than a troll.
Someone said that ideas without efforts to make them happen is fantasy. So until you can grow a bonsai or better still make a bonsai why don't you put a cork in it. Trying to use the "I'm going to grow from seed! is a very clever dodge but it is also dishonest for one who seeks to do things the way the ancients did them. Maybe you should take look at how bonsai has been grown over the centuries. Growing from see has only entered into the equation sionce those evil capitalistic merchants and commercial growers needed a way to cultivate trees they could no longer collect from the mountains. Collecting from the mountains______? Now that's a zen like pastime. Why don't you go and do that------ and then come back and tell us how bonsai is done. You can talk about philosophy and zen and all manner of esoteric crap but that's just about all it is.
In the end you are nothing more than a troll.
tantric
Yamadori
FIRST: i came back because i realized i'd violated the precepts about right speech:
8)Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.
9)Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest or to impress people. Do not utter words that cause division and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things of which you are not sure. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.
9)Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest or to impress people. Do not utter words that cause division and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things of which you are not sure. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.
i started this thread looking for some examples of well done postmodern bonsai, and i've found inspiration and awe and wonder. i also got baited into some nonsense and pontificated. it is true that i know nothing about contemporary bonsai culture, which is a beautiful and developed art and has its own standards of beauty. though we may find some of the same trees beautiful, i am clearly not looking for the same kind of experience as the normal bonsai enthusiast. i had expectations - and that's never good. i thought i'd land here and for once i could talk about my aesthetic ideals and be understood, at least.
but this, well, we'll just have to disagree. though you are correct, there are people making excellent pots today in the traditional style, and keeping it alive and new. but i also know exactly what big business zen is - i've been given a number of those little rock garden thingies. i know that 'zen' is the thing that sells cars and candy
i also know that when a friend gave me '100 poems from the japanese' as a HS graduation present, Hitomaro's naga uta broke my heart. i learned japanese in the 90s not to talk to sarariman, but to study the Manyooshu and the Nihonshoki. i've lived and breathed this aesthetic for two decades, and it isn't a dusty relic from ancient japan. it's a way of understanding transience, loss and peace. i love the classical bonsai and i intend to grow them - for the experience of it, the feeling it evokes. but this is not Edo, people, the Emperor has left the building. it's here and now. the home depot pot i've had for 12 years, with stories i can tell, stains and graffiti and all, are where my trees are staying. i will, however, appreciate the pots used by others for how they contribute to the bonsai, not based on elitism, which is wrong.
and no, i'm not a troll, i'm a yokai. i'd rather be a kamaitachi, but you probably had a nuppeppo more in mind.
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Aaronkslater
Yamadori
Vance,
I'm sorry about the link and if it looked like spam... I would take it down if I could but can't seem to. It was meant as a response to rockm's comment.
I DO care about bonsai a lot. That is why I find it interesting and worthwhile to discuss the role of bonsai in art and the subject of "postmodern bonsai"
I didn't mean to "Lecture" if you look back at my posts I made every attempt to present everything I said as opinion. I was simply telling people what I think and feel about the subject. I have no authority and am not educating. Just discussing.
If you really don't care how good my trees are then you wouldn't need to see pictures of them. I'm not offering care advice, it seems to me we are having a philosophical discussion. Again I'm not "telling" you about anything, I'm just voicing thoughts and opinions. Besides, I have posted picture of my trees at some point... there on here somewhere, at least they should be.
I'm very sorry if I haven't contributed constructively to this thread. I honestly think that Sawgrass voiced my opinion better than I did myself.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
If you were serious you would approach this community with a humble heart not a condescending attitude that "I know more than you will ever know". There is nothing more sad than someone who comes into a place like this and refuses to learn anything but instead tries to teach every body how he thinks it should be. The truth is you cannot possible know anything significant if you have not experienced it yourself. Again: To imagine an idea without the attempt to make it happen is fantasy. I don't want to be privy to your fantasy. You want to learn bonsai as it is; then ask and shut your boasting, condescending, holier-than-thou, prideful, boasting, arrogant and offensive mouth and listen.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
tantric . . . Have you ever BEEN to Japan? To the average man and woman on the street, wabi-sabi, bonsai, and even zen barely exist -- especially among those under 50-65 years old (which is becoming a smaller percentage of the population every year). They just try to survive in the working world.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
A thought just came to me: He who wishes to impose a higher standard on another man needs himself to have achieved that standard.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"but i also know exactly what big business zen is - i've been given a number of those little rock garden thingies. i know that 'zen' is the thing that sells cars and candy"
God, you are ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS about bonsai and the business surrounding it. It's hardly part of the "pop zen" crap craze...The bonsai business in Japan (and increasingly in the U.S. and Europe) is NOT the roadside "zen-ish" two foot juniper in a pot. God man, at least TRY to take a stab at being informed or at least fib more creatively.
Here's a few places to start:
http://www.j-bonsai.com/product-group/2
http://bonsaimirai.com/
http://omiyabonsai.jp/
I post these sites to provide you with examples of what real bonsai are, not as objects of desire.
"If you really don't care how good my trees are then you wouldn't need to see pictures of them."
Nice try. Uh, OK. We DO care about how good your trees are because they will speak more honestly about your understanding of bonsai.
God, you are ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS about bonsai and the business surrounding it. It's hardly part of the "pop zen" crap craze...The bonsai business in Japan (and increasingly in the U.S. and Europe) is NOT the roadside "zen-ish" two foot juniper in a pot. God man, at least TRY to take a stab at being informed or at least fib more creatively.
Here's a few places to start:
http://www.j-bonsai.com/product-group/2
http://bonsaimirai.com/
http://omiyabonsai.jp/
I post these sites to provide you with examples of what real bonsai are, not as objects of desire.
"If you really don't care how good my trees are then you wouldn't need to see pictures of them."
Nice try. Uh, OK. We DO care about how good your trees are because they will speak more honestly about your understanding of bonsai.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"i'm not a troll, i'm a yokai. i'd rather be a kamaitachi, but you probably had a nuppeppo more in mind."
SMDH, someone's been watching too many Hideo Nakata flicks.
SMDH, someone's been watching too many Hideo Nakata flicks.
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