Need Thoughts on this Yamadori Hornbeam

[Jetson1950]

I collected this hornbeam up in Pennsylvania last year and brought it to Florida. Wasn’t sure if it could handle the heat, but it did quite well surviving down here for a year, so I need to get ready for the next step. It is probably a 4-5 year sapling and is 32” tall. I cut the rest of the top off. Since its trunk is 3/8” thick and fairly hard I don’t want to try any bending on it. Instead I’m thinking of trying to make three small trees out of it. Once it leafs out, I will pick two air layer points to divide the trunk in thirds. Second photo shows where I think the air layers will be. If the consensus is to divide it in half instead of thirds I could go for that, but the trunks will be fairly straight, so I would probably go for formal upright designs. One air layer for two trees would be 16” trunks on each.

The three close up shots are just to show all the budding it is doing. Lots of back budding along the entire trunk. This year will only be trying to get the successful air layer(s) done and let it grow wild for the next year. After that, see where to take it next.

Any thoughts, ideas or recommendations would ne greatly appreciated.

 

[Kanorin]

American hornbeams take longer than average to air-layer - and that's when they are really pumped full of energy and growing strong. I'd advise against air layering this tree for 3 reasons:
1) Performing the air layer will massively slow down development of the tree you are starting with.
2) Since this tree was recently collected, it is still in a recovery phase - it may just decide to abort the area you are trying to layer off.
3) I don't see any super interesting trees that you'd make from it.

 

[Jetson1950]

American hornbeams take longer than average to air-layer - and that's when they are really pumped full of energy and growing strong. I'd advise against air layering this tree for 3 reasons:
1) Performing the air layer will massively slow down development of the tree you are starting with.
2) Since this tree was recently collected, it is still in a recovery phase - it may just decide to abort the area you are trying to layer off.
3) I don't see any super interesting trees that you'd make from it.

I agree with everything you’ve said. Just hard for me to go with the obvious. Maybe the best idea is like you said. Just let it grow for a few years as is and let it get strong. After that, just chop off what I don’t want and go from there.

 

[Shibui]

American hornbeams take longer than average to air-layer - and that's when they are really pumped full of energy and growing strong. I'd advise against air layering this tree for 3 reasons:
1) Performing the air layer will massively slow down development of the tree you are starting with.
2) Since this tree was recently collected, it is still in a recovery phase - it may just decide to abort the area you are trying to layer off.
3) I don't see any super interesting trees that you'd make from it.

Agree with all of this, especially point 3. We tend to get carried away with layering without considering the quality of the product. Unless you really want some practice I'd recommend no layer.

If you need extra trees, I find hornbeam easy to strike as cuttings and they will grow rapidly when roots have developed. No real scale in the photos but my guess is those sections you've marked for layers would be suitable for cuttings - much quicker and easier. Generally, pieces from pencil thick to maybe finger thick should strike. I get best results with cuttings taken soon after leaf drop as deciduous cuttings with no leaves don't need special conditions and form roots slowly through Winter.

Don't let the trunk get too fat before making your first chop. Larger scars take longer to heal. Early chops may slow development a little but you'll generally more than make up for that when the cuts heal quicker.

 

[Potawatomi13]

a 4-5 year sapling

This is your accurate description, not Yamadori.

 

[Jetson1950]

Agree with all of this, especially point 3. We tend to get carried away with layering without considering the quality of the product. Unless you really want some practice I'd recommend no layer.

If you need extra trees, I find hornbeam easy to strike as cuttings and they will grow rapidly when roots have developed. No real scale in the photos but my guess is those sections you've marked for layers would be suitable for cuttings - much quicker and easier. Generally, pieces from pencil thick to maybe finger thick should strike. I get best results with cuttings taken soon after leaf drop as deciduous cuttings with no leaves don't need special conditions and form roots slowly through Winter.

Don't let the trunk get too fat before making your first chop. Larger scars take longer to heal. Early chops may slow development a little but you'll generally more than make up for that when the cuts heal quicker.

Thanks Shibui. Just the advice I needed. My nature is I hate giving up on anything that might live. Can’t stand the thought of just chopping something off without trying to make it grow. I will let it grow this year and take cuttings next fall.

 

[rockm]

Thanks Shibui. Just the advice I needed. My nature is I hate giving up on anything that might live. Can’t stand the thought of just chopping something off without trying to make it grow. I will let it grow this year and take cuttings next fall.

You have to get past the “have to air layer” thing. It gets in the way unnecessarily screws up priorities and delays actual bonsai work.

Also fwiw hornbeam even very large examples are pretty easy to collect. I wouldn’t waste time on stuff like this that really has no future (at least not in the next 20 years. Collecting hornbeam means looking for “muscled up” trunks and good nebari.

 

[Jetson1950]

You have to get past the “have to air layer” thing. It gets in the way unnecessarily screws up priorities and delays actual bonsai work.

Also fwiw hornbeam even very large examples are pretty easy to collect. I wouldn’t waste time on stuff like this that really has no future (at least not in the next 20 years. Collecting hornbeam means looking for “muscled up” trunks and good nebari.

Understand your thought process. I’m still fairly new to the concepts of bonsai, but I have an extremely strong drive just to grow things. The transition from a large saltwater reef tank to bonsai keeps me growing things, but I think I’m still in the just grow everything mode and haven’t developed a good focus yet on what I’m trying to do with the concepts of bonsai design and future outcome. A lot of what I see that folks do with trees doesn’t set well with me at this point, because it seems to be a process of making a tree do things that are unnatural to what it really wants to do. But, that’s something I will have to gradually overcome as I learn more about how to make a tiny young tree look like a hundred year old tree. lol! Being new to the process I still get to ask stupid questions and try stupid ideas to see what happens. That’s the experience I’m working on now. As far as the hornbeams and beech trees I harvested up north, I know I shouldn’t have done that and brought them to central Florida, but I like the trees and wanted to see if I can convince them to grow in an area that is totally unnatural for their genetic design. I guess that’s still the strong desire to just watch things grow versus actually building a future cool looking bonsai. I’ll get there. I’m only 75 so this endeavor will keep me going for at least another 50 years or so.

 

[rockm]

Understand your thought process. I’m still fairly new to the concepts of bonsai, but I have an extremely strong drive just to grow things. The transition from a large saltwater reef tank to bonsai keeps me growing things, but I think I’m still in the just grow everything mode and haven’t developed a good focus yet on what I’m trying to do with the concepts of bonsai design and future outcome. A lot of what I see that folks do with trees doesn’t set well with me at this point, because it seems to be a process of making a tree do things that are unnatural to what it really wants to do. But, that’s something I will have to gradually overcome as I learn more about how to make a tiny young tree look like a hundred year old tree. lol! Being new to the process I still get to ask stupid questions and try stupid ideas to see what happens. That’s the experience I’m working on now. As far as the hornbeams and beech trees I harvested up north, I know I shouldn’t have done that and brought them to central Florida, but I like the trees and wanted to see if I can convince them to grow in an area that is totally unnatural for their genetic design. I guess that’s still the strong desire to just watch things grow versus actually building a future cool looking bonsai. I’ll get there. I’m only 75 so this endeavor will keep me going for at least another 50 years or so.

The “bonsai is natural”is a myth from the jump. It is entirely artificial —trees don’t grow in manmade containers. It’s natural but artistically so
developed with measured sometimes drastic intervention. In making bonsai we exploit trees natural abilities to respond to damage. Those abilities have evolved over billions of years- branches resprout ramify leaves regenerate. Wound compartmentalize etc. wind snow heat drought floods animals all take a natural toll on trees. They evolved to handle it. There NOTHING you can do that can surpass what nature herself inflicts in trees every minute of every day across the planet. Thinking that you’re doing something unnatural is pretty egotistical. Nature does worse and more extreme beyond your imagination. You’re hardly a hurricane

MANY folks here used to be saltwater aquarium keepers. Me included. It is something of a prerequisite for bonsai

I learned that trying to repurpose chopped limbs trunks etc was a waste of time and resources. It was simple ego that drove me to try and “save” insipid useless cuttings layers etc. the vast VAST majority of that stuff wasn’t worth the time and effort or space on my bench.

If you want to do bonsai. DO BONSAI

 

[rockm]

Also FWIW Carolina hornbeams range is just south of Orlando-ish so there may be some in the woods near your house.

 

[Jetson1950]

The “bonsai is natural”is a myth from the jump. It is entirely artificial —trees don’t grow in manmade containers. It’s natural but artistically so
developed with measured sometimes drastic intervention. In making bonsai we exploit trees natural abilities to respond to damage. Those abilities have evolved over billions of years- branches resprout ramify leaves regenerate. Wound compartmentalize etc. wind snow heat drought floods animals all take a natural toll on trees. They evolved to handle it. There NOTHING you can do that can surpass what nature herself inflicts in trees every minute of every day across the planet. Thinking that you’re doing something unnatural is pretty egotistical. Nature does worse and more extreme beyond your imagination. You’re hardly a hurricane

MANY folks here used to be saltwater aquarium keepers. Me included. It is something of a prerequisite for bonsai

I learned that trying to repurpose chopped limbs trunks etc was a waste of time and resources. It was simple ego that drove me to try and “save” insipid useless cuttings layers etc. the vast VAST majority of that stuff wasn’t worth the time and effort or space on my bench.

If you want to do bonsai. DO BONSAI

Well said. The thought that a lot of bonsai folks also had reef tanks makes me smile. It did seem a normal transition to me. Also your words on give up trying to save everything hits home with me, because that’s where I am in the process. A lot of my posts on different threads eludes to me struggling with that transition and the feeling I can’t give up on trying to keep everything alive. It’s probably already been done, but I should start an ugly bonsai thread of some of the things I still keep alive. Some are very sad looking, but still growing. These discussions help. As I get better at this I will see positive results and start being able to let go of those things that will never make the cut to being a beautiful bonsai creation. Time will tell.

 

[rockm]

Well said. The thought that a lot of bonsai folks also had reef tanks makes me smile. It did seem a normal transition to me. Also your words on give up trying to save everything hits home with me, because that’s where I am in the process. A lot of my posts on different threads eludes to me struggling with that transition and the feeling I can’t give up on trying to keep everything alive. It’s probably already been done, but I should start an ugly bonsai thread of some of the things I still keep alive. Some are very sad looking, but still growing. These discussions help. As I get better at this I will see positive results and start being able to let go of those things that will never make the cut to being a beautiful bonsai creation. Time will tell.

Look at it this way—do you keep clipped toenails? Hair? Saving pruned twigs branches etc that are made during the creation/maintenance process are mostly the same thing. Detritus

Cuttings air layers etc are INTENTIONALLYcreated because of special characteristics of what is being propagated. To save them they must offer something worthwhile-dramatic taper, exceptional movement etc. that will make them exceptional bonsai down the road. The top of a taperless mostly unremarkable sapling doesn’t offer much

 

[liltrees]

Look at it this way—do you keep clipped toenails? Hair? Saving pruned twigs branches etc that are made during the creation/maintenance process are mostly the same thing. Detritus

Cuttings air layers etc are INTENTIONALLYcreated because of special characteristics of what is being propagated. To save them they must offer something worthwhile-dramatic taper, exceptional movement etc. that will make them exceptional bonsai down the road. The top of a taperless mostly unremarkable sapling doesn’t offer much

My caveat to this, I propagated anything and everything for a long time because I wasnt a rich man. The division from one plant to two or more gave me much more to play around with early on in the hobby without breaking the bank.

Giving up a year of development wasnt a big deal back then. You either pay with time or money.

 

[rockm]

My caveat to this, I propagated anything and everything for a long time because I wasnt a rich man. The division from one plant to two or more gave me much more to play around with early on in the hobby without breaking the bank.

Giving up a year of development wasnt a big deal back then. You either pay with time or money.

And resources. How much of your time soil fertilizer etc was used on mostly useless dead end material. How much of that did you hang on to? How much did you eventually get rid of?

What’s more cost effective? Not keeping it or have is soak up water time and resources for a decade with very little return?

Been there. Purged the benches after realizing $100 was better spent on decent new material than on nursing a dozen hopeless cuttings through another year.

 

[Jetson1950]

And resources. How much of your time soil fertilizer etc was used on mostly useless dead end material. How much of that did you hang on to? How much did you eventually get rid of?

What’s more cost effective? Not keeping it or have is soak up water time and resources for a decade with very little return?

Been there. Purged the benches after realizing $100 was better spent on decent new material than on nursing a dozen hopeless cuttings through another year.

I have reached that point in my life where cost of resources are not an issue, so my focus is on learning and experimenting to see what I can create. And, what is possible to create. I try not to think of how much money I spent over the years on the reef tank. The other issue for me is having difficulty on as you say, giving up on things that will never be anything other than something that is alive, but no potential.

Case in point is below. My first attempt at a bonsai tree. It’s a seedling cross between maybe a laural oak, water oak and God only knows what else. It’s about 8 years old, has almost dies more times than I can count, but yet it’s still with me. Pretty ugly isn’t it! I guess I keep it because it reminds me of all the stupid things I have done to it, but yet it lives on and refuses to die. I guess my brain keeps thinking it will be the story of the ugly duckling that one day turns into the beautiful swan. Plus it’s a reminder of things not to do again. Bonsai to me is like the reef tank was. It’s a journey to try and replicate beauty in a confined spot that natural can create everywhere. The trip to get to the end is much more important than reaching the destination.

Laugh if you need to, but this little guy will never get thrown away. It will be with me till the end.