Are trees always displayed with moss?

[Deep Sea Diver]

Those are some gorgeous mosses. Enviable, even. It rains about 9months a year here and even on the tiles it doesn't grow as lush as in your pics. I've tried many methods of transplanting and various different types from different areas in the garden and still haven't cracked it yet.

Certainly seems a conducive environment for mosses. Maybe try something with a bit more texture? Perhaps mix in some Yamagoke?

Alternatively the water quality may be lacking. One would want water on the acidic side. Might try to toss in 1 gram of citric acid to 3.78 L of tap water to lower the pH one unit. (Approximately)

I have seen sedums used as ground cover too, but they still have roots which might interfere with the plant's, unless you use them on a fairly large bonsai I guess. I only have small trees so I don't use it as ground cover but do keep a small patch in my bougainvillea's pot, I think they match nicely, and some in accent pots

It depends upon the succulent whether or not the roots will grow deeply. Most of the miniatures will not go very deep at all, considering the repotting cycle of most bonsai. (Sorry for the ill kept bonsai late season images)



Harkening back to ecology training, couldn’t one propose the presence of these shallow rooted plants might actually be beneficial for the bonsai? Ours are certainly visibly much more healthy and robust then in the years without.

Maybe “not having other species is bad for health (and growth)” in a containerized environment is a myth? (under the constraints mentioned previously… shallow rooted species.) We certainly think so…..

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[RozendaalArts]

Certainly seems a conducive environment for mosses. Maybe try something with a bit more texture? Perhaps mix in some Yamagoke?
Alternatively the water quality may be lacking. One would want water on the acidic side. Might try to toss in 1 gram of citric acid to 3.78 L of tap water to lower the pH one unit. (Approximately)
It depends upon the succulent whether or not the roots will grow deeply. Most of the miniatures will not go very deep at all, considering the repotting cycle of most bonsai. (Sorry for the ill kept bonsai late season images)
Harkening back to ecology training, couldn’t one propose the presence of these shallow rooted plants might actually be beneficial for the bonsai? Ours are certainly visibly much more healthy and robust then in the years without.
Maybe “not having other species is bad for health (and growth)” in a containerized environment is a myth? (under the constraints mentioned previously… shallow rooted species.) We certainly think so…..
Cheers
DSD sends

Beautiful examples, I also love seeing small ferns as understory plants. Is that a J. communis or one of the similar-looking chinensis cultivars?

 

[Michael P]

For those of you who are successful with moss, do you have any special collection or propagation techniques that work well? I love moss but moss does not love me or my climate.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Procumbus Nana in front with a Shimpaku root over root behind it.

Like ferns, might try maidenhair spleenwort or Himalayan maidenhair fern in some of your bonsai. Both tend to be small and react to pruning well.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Attmos]

We are trying to show a 'natural' tree in a natural setting.

Consider the species and the ecosystem you are trying to convey to your viewer.

In my experience with reality in the U.S., there's rarely any grass growing under trees that wasn't put there. Mostly it's undergrowth (that doesn't look like grass), or dead wood on top of top soil. In the mountains it's usually pine needles or straight up granite/sandstone....
Only place I've seen natural grass or greenery under a fully developed tree is in other countries.

 

[pandacular]

For those of you who are successful with moss, do you have any special collection or propagation techniques that work well? I love moss but moss does not love me or my climate.

I do it pretty much exactly as demonstrated on Mirai Live, which has an excellent short* video on top dressing.

Recipe
1 part locally collected moss, coarsely ground
1 part sphagnum moss, coarsely ground, optionally darkened

It’s worth noting that for certain drier plants (mountain pines in particular) the pot should not be kept wet enough that moss grows easily if at all.

The most important thing you can do is use moss that already grows on your topsoil, or in your environment. Here in the northwest, I get plenty of volunteers, so I select my favorites.

* short being a relative word here

edited to add: at PBM, we keep around a few flats of “toupes” that are kept with the more herbaceous

 

[Michael P]

Do you apply the moss/sphagnum mixture directly to the soil in the pot? Is there soil in the flats for the toupes (love that term)?

 

[Wulfskaar]

For those of you who are successful with moss, do you have any special collection or propagation techniques that work well? I love moss but moss does not love me or my climate.

I'm in the same boat regarding moss.

I finally took the advice of several B-nutters and found some moss, grinded it up with some sphagnum into a "slurry" and put a thin layer over the soil. The ones that had more green from the collected moss grew better. It took months for the moss to really take, and it's still spotty, but it's the best I've been able to do.

What I learned:
1. When the moss dries out, it becomes a solid piece sitting on top of the soil. Only looks good when wet. Not sure if it's ok to mist, but even then, I'd probably have to mist several times per day, which I can't do.
2. Birds like to take chunks of it. A couple of my mossed trees are half-bare due to birds.
3. The mix with more green worked better.
4. It might take months for the moss to green-up and look mossy.
5. Next time, I will have a higher concentration of collected moss to mix with the sphagnum.
6. Next time, I will do this much earlier in the season, like right after repotting. This year, I didn't add moss until later in spring.
7. Taking chunks of moss from where it grew naturally and placing it on bonsai soil only worked with certain kinds of moss, but most of the chunks eventually dried up and died.

 

[Attmos]

We are trying to show a 'natural' tree in a natural setting.
Moss gives the impression of grass or low understory under the tree but not all trees line in a place with grass or green ground cover.
Many environments have a ground layer of sand or gravel.
Consider the species and the ecosystem you are trying to convey to your viewer.
Arid land species may look far more natural with a top dressing of sand/gravel than with moss.
Some species tend to be allelopathic and kill all vegetation below the branches. Also show these species without moss or green ground cover.

In the end, it's up to you to decide what story your bonsai tells. Don't let the bonsai Nazis tell you how it has to be done.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for my comment to sound oppositional or condescending. I was agreeing, in my own weird way.

I think a natural look could include much more than the appearance of green grass or undergrowth. That's all I was saying.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for my comment to sound oppositional or condescending. I was agreeing, in my own weird way.

I think a natural look could include much more than the appearance of green grass or undergrowth. That's all I was saying.

@rockm mentioned above that having a few different types of ground cover can add to a realistic scene. I've seen a few like that and they do add a more realistic element. Adding patches of no moss could do the same visually.

YOU are the artist, so I say do what you think looks right and best. If that means leaving some bare soil around the base of the trunk, then cool.

Then there's the idea that with bonsai, most people aren't trying to recreate a miniature scene that looks real, but rather, they are creating a piece of art that is more of a suggestion of nature. Many of these world-class bonsai trees look nothing like real trees in nature. If we were strictly going for a natural look, there would be more dead and broken branches, old branches on the ground below the tree, tons of nodes that branch into >2 branches, etc.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Here’s the rub. It all has to do with what you mix in the moss.

Sphagnum is not living. merely a place for the other moss spores to take hold of. Hence the use of a dry mixture. Also dry mixes can go on thinner, yet will eventually grow just as thick as a wet moss mix.

These dry mixtures can be finicky imho. The ratio of living moss to non living moss is one variable.

Another variable is the environment. Dry spells stretching for weeks when installed, can create severe difficulty for the grower. The horticultural response is to mist more and likely change the environment the tree is in to give more shade until the moss takes hold. Recognizing the moss isn’t responding properly is key. Otherwise dry mixes tend to be subject to the elements and can erode off or blow off, leaving only a patchy surface of moss..

Using live mosses like local mosses and/or yamagoke (mountain moss wetted overnight) requires a wet mix. This mix takes hold much faster, and grows strongly yet will still be subject to the immediate environment. Fixing it into the top layer of media helps solve this issue.

We witnessed the effect of installing a dry moss mix first hand this year. Multiple large bonsai had soji (topsoil removal) performed on them. Then a dry mix was installed. A lengthy dry spell ensued. The moss didn’t catch hold for a number of months on some bonsai. However during the same time a wet mix was installed on another collections trees. The moss flourished on these bonsai.

Critters can make growing moss on bonsai a hassle. However this can be easily solved by using window or similar screening. Simply cut the outline of the pot in the screen. Then cut out a hole for the trunk and an entry slot. Once installed, use fine wire to close the slot and peg down the greening. These screens can be reused for as number of years.

An alternate solution for complex bonsai, like landscape scenes is to use plastic mesh and pin it down. These can also be saved and reused.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Ruddigger]

Over the lip? Or under...? Looks like slightly under the lip.

Below.

 

[Shibui]

In my experience with reality in the U.S., there's rarely any grass growing under trees that wasn't put there. Mostly it's undergrowth (that doesn't look like grass), or dead wood on top of top soil. In the mountains it's usually pine needles or straight up granite/sandstone....

Exactly. So much depends on the local environment and then on the species. Many trees are allelopathic - meaning they release chemicals that suppress competition so the ground under those trees tends to have little or no other plants. It may be that in places where there's abundance of water, nutrient and light there's plenty for everybody and therefore no need to wipe out the competition.
Down here, I see a mix of different understory. Some trees tolerate grass growing right up to the trunks, some do not.
More common in arid areas to see sand or bare soil under the tree canopy so I try to reproduce that when displaying arid zone trees as bonsai.

having a few different types of ground cover can add to a realistic scene. I've seen a few like that and they do add a more realistic element. Adding patches of no moss could do the same visually.

One of the visiting Japanese masters warned against having too much variation in ground cover under a bonsai because that can distract the viewer from the tree. Personally, I'm more than happy to use 2 different ground covers - usually moss and sand - on the same tree.

Below.

This is another recommendation from Japanese visiting tutors. Certainly makes watering easier because the water doesn't run right off.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I'm in the same boat regarding moss.

I finally took the advice of several B-nutters and found some moss, grinded it up with some sphagnum into a "slurry" and put a thin layer over the soil. The ones that had more green from the collected moss grew better. It took months for the moss to really take, and it's still spotty, but it's the best I've been able to do.

What I learned:
1. When the moss dries out, it becomes a solid piece sitting on top of the soil. Only looks good when wet. Not sure if it's ok to mist, but even then, I'd probably have to mist several times per day, which I can't do.
2. Birds like to take chunks of it. A couple of my mossed trees are half-bare due to birds.
3. The mix with more green worked better.
4. It might take months for the moss to green-up and look mossy.
5. Next time, I will have a higher concentration of collected moss to mix with the sphagnum.
6. Next time, I will do this much earlier in the season, like right after repotting. This year, I didn't add moss until later in spring.
7. Taking chunks of moss from where it grew naturally and placing it on bonsai soil only worked with certain kinds of moss, but most of the chunks eventually dried up and died.

FYI, here are my results. As you can see, quite a bit of moss has been taken by birds. The moss that did grow dries out every day, but it look ok when watered. These are the best results I've had so far. Getting started on moss earlier next year should help a lot.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Many trees are allelopathic - meaning they release chemicals that suppress competition so the ground under those trees tends to have little or no other plants. It may be that in places where there's abundance of water, nutrient and light there's plenty for everybody and therefore no need to wipe out the competition.

Allelopathy is an interesting subject. Useful in the wild as completion for space, light and water is very high in nature. That said, almost all allelopathic effects are exhibited in nature rather than a bonsai pot.

The key reason is the foremost allelopathic source is fallen leaves, needles bark bits from certain trees.
Here is a basic list. Some Japanese Maples, Quite a few pines - Korean, White (weak effect), Red, Scots, Aleppo, Ponderosa and Australian pines, Japanese quince, Chinese and American junipers, Crabapple, Bottlebrush, Eucalyptus, acacia and lilac) Normal bonsai care will totally alleviate issues from this litter source.

However a few bonsai species seem to also have allelopathic effects from root exudates. JWP, Allepo pine, American & Chinese Elm and Wisteria…. There may be more down under.

Yet ground covers like moss, succulents, ferns, mini creeping phlox etc are very hardy and not likely to be inhibited.

Now if there were Black Walnut bonsai, these have a pretty nasty effect on companion plants and ground covers

One of the visiting Japanese masters warned against having too much variation in ground cover under a bonsai because that can distract the viewer from the tree. Personally, I'm more than happy to use 2 different ground covers - usually moss and sand - on the same tree.

Pretty much the standard traditional Japanese approach.

This is another recommendation from Japanese visiting tutors. Certainly makes watering easier because the water doesn't run right off.

This is for sure!

FYI, here are my results. As you can see, quite a bit of moss has been taken by birds. The moss that did grow dries out every day, but it look ok when watered. These are the best results I've had so far. Getting started on moss earlier next year should help a lot.

It’s an ongoing battle. We have a fountain and suet feeder. Mostly the birds go for these. However in breeding time things can get busy. Specific trees get attacked, likely the birds sense food! That’s when the screening and mesh come out to play!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

For those of you who are successful with moss, do you have any special collection or propagation techniques that work well? I love moss but moss does not love me or my climate.

FYI, here are my results. As you can see, quite a bit of moss has been taken by birds. The moss that did grow dries out every day, but it look ok when watered. These are the best results I've had so far. Getting started on moss earlier next year should help a lot.

Have you tried growing the moss in a separate pot? North Side of a structure (no direct sun), potting soil, ground up collected & sphagnum or just collected in a tray. That way you can keep it as wet as needed without having it dry out on the pot. Then apply when needed.

My BC sits in water and this grew on it's own. When I water I can see all the moss spores floating around, and I'm going to remove it from the tree before winter. Old pic from July there's way more now.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Have you tried growing the moss in a separate pot? North Side of a structure (no direct sun), potting soil, ground up collected & sphagnum or just collected in a tray. That way you can keep it as wet as needed without having it dry out on the pot. Then apply when needed.

Earlier this year, I was advised to find moss that grows in sun for my trees that need sun, and find moss that grows in shade for trees that need more shade. For this reason, I tried only 2 types of moss I found on my property that both grew in sun.

I did try to grow a tray of moss a couple years ago. It grew well at first, but then died. It was in 95% shade. I will definitely try again though. When I did it the first time, I basically just put chunks of moss onto garden soil. I didn't actually blend it up with sphagnum.

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

Earlier this year, I was advised to find moss that grows in sun for my trees that need sun, and find moss that grows in shade for trees that need more shade. For this reason, I tried only 2 types of moss I found on my property that both grew in sun.

I did try to grow a tray of moss a couple years ago. It grew well at first, but then died. It was in 95% shade. I will definitely try again though. When I did it the first time, I basically just put chunks of moss onto garden soil. I didn't actually blend it up with sphagnum.

The one in the picture is in the morning sun. So, I can see the need for moss that grows in the sun in your environment for sure. Moss grows on most north facing surfaces around me. I have a spot in my yard that I can collect from. I was just thinking a moist environment with bright light would work in your garden.

 

[River's Edge]

Should bonsai soil always reach the top of the pot, or can some of the pot's inside show? Not the topic, I know.... Sorry

The soil level should be below the lip of the pot, helps to retain water when watered and displays the nebari roughly at the pot level and a bit above for better viewing.

We are fortunate in the Pacific Northwest, lots of moss and good growing conditions. I keep extra in Anderson flats, with sand as a substrate. Makes it easy to remove and trim for application when needed.

With moss I prefer some variation in color to suit the display, however stick with less variation in moss type. Prefer the smoother short types. Definitely variation in the size and shape of pieces of moss making up the overall composition and some variation depth of pieces.
Some rough examples put together for a recent local display to illustrate my preference. Agree that it should not distract from the overall.
It can be used to complement and enhance if done properly. Sometimes it works out better than others.

 

[JoeWilson]

For those of you who are successful with moss, do you have any special collection or propagation techniques that work well? I love moss but moss does not love me or my climate.

Collected moss usually dies because it's taken from an environment where it's happy, and moved to an environment where it doesn't want to be. Not the right amount of water, light, or both. If you can replicate its conditions, it tends to transplant very well. There is not much you need to do with it when you move it; you can usually pinch a clump and put it in a ziplock bag or even in a jacket pocket. Just make sure you keep it from getting too dry when you move it, though some species can get extremely dry without dying. The main thing is selecting a type of moss that wants to be where you're putting it, so think about the conditions your tree needs, and try to match the moss species to the tree. And then make sure that the soil is nice and mucky when you transplant it. You can use fines to make a little mucky mixture to glue it onto your substrate. Some people use netting to keep birds from taking it, the wind from blowing it off, etc, too. Keeping it stuck down while it gets established is important. So don't be afraid to smash it down occasionally, especially right after it goes in.

PS: I don't do any of this grinding up business. This can work but is the slowest way to propagate moss. It's great if you need to fill a wide area and have limited moss to start with, but otherwise, start with nice, big chunks and let them get bigger. Moss has multiple stages of life, and grinding it up effectively kicks it back a couple of stages. Grinding basically puts it back into the pore stage. Leave some space between the clumps, and it will spread pores all on its own and fill in.