Thoughts on this yamadori Juniper?

[Joe Dupre']

I like ERC, but I wouldn't recommend them for a new bonsai enthusiast. They will never look like a shimpaku, and you have to accept that. If you do get one, put it in a pot with an airy soil mix and don't repot for 4-5 years. Mine don't like their roots to be messed with. You WILL get plenty of juvenile foliage. That doesn't bother me, but to some it does. For the most part, they respond to the same care you would give to any other juniper.

 

[littletreefarmer]

I don't think you belong in this forum and suggest you leave.

Yes, lord, I shall do thy bidding.

I agree with everyone else here, on the bonsai merits. This tree is probably not going to live post-collection nor is it really suited for bonsai. Maybe if the trunk was nicer you would consider grafting different foliage down the road, but it's not that interesting. You'd probably be out the same amount of $$ in 3-4 years if you just buy a decent nursery stock and work on that.

Bonsai as a craft stemmed from philosophical beliefs, and I for one still think the philosophical importance permeates the practice. I think about my trees far more than I work on them, and I really like progressing my trees. If you can't justify the reasons for doing something, it just simply shouldn't be done. This is all to say that yamadori is becoming a more and more strained practice in the philosophy of bonsai. Do I collect trees? Every spring. Do I do it responsibly in places I am permitted? Absolutely. You live in the most continuously developed region of this country with very little free and open wilderness for this practice; you must do your research and do this in a morally acceptable way. One cannot place these trees on a pedestal in a creative mindset and simultaneously have complete disregard for their status as individual organisms.

Would you like to keep the greatest ERC bonsai in the world if you also knew the species no longer existed in the wilderness? That's just owning a ghost. If we are not careful with our yamadori practice, this could reasonably be the future.

 

[Slimjim1187]

To just about everyone here with their moral posturing, it’s not that deep. There would be literally zero impact on… anything… taking this tree.

As for the likelihood of survival, it seems that the strong consensus from the community is that this tree wouldn’t survive, so I’ll take that warning and leave the tree be.

I’d like to hear why everyone is convinced it’s an ERC? To my eye and various tree ID apps on my phone, it seems to match to Chinese Juniper. I’ve looked at lots of ERCs and they look distinct to this one. Anyway, not saying I’m sure of anything, just want to know what tips people off to ERC vs Juniper.

 

[JesseKane]

The real issue here, regardless of your own morals, is that if you collect a tree from an area where it is not allowed an you are caught, it will make the entire bonsai collecting community look bad. It may result in policy changes of the land managers that limits legal access to great trees. That's why you're getting a strong response to a plan that goes against the basics of responsible collecting.

 

[littletreefarmer]

To just about everyone here with their moral posturing, it’s not that deep. There would be literally zero impact on… anything… taking this tree.

As for the likelihood of survival, it seems that the strong consensus from the community is that this tree wouldn’t survive, so I’ll take that warning and leave the tree be.

I’d like to hear why everyone is convinced it’s an ERC? To my eye and various tree ID apps on my phone, it seems to match to Chinese Juniper. I’ve looked at lots of ERCs and they look distinct to this one. Anyway, not saying I’m sure of anything, just want to know what tips people off to ERC vs Juniper.

In another life I'd be interested to hear your reasons for undertaking such an intensive pursuit as bonsai if it's not that deep. Seems like some real mental wrangling there. This shit is a lot of work, like a lot. The only thing that keeps me going most of the time is how deeply passionate I am about it.

You also need to heavily consider if you are willing to care for this plant for the rest of your lives together if you are considering pulling it from it's place in nature. My understanding of your intention here makes me question if you have thought this through, or if you simply think bonsai is cool.

To be honest, though, you are gong to do what you want to do, beyond any reasoning here. I hope you at least think you are making a good choice. Have a good one!

 

[shohin_branches]

I’d like to hear why everyone is convinced it’s an ERC? To my eye and various tree ID apps on my phone, it seems to match to Chinese Juniper. I’ve looked at lots of ERCs and they look distinct to this one. Anyway, not saying I’m sure of anything, just want to know what tips people off to ERC vs Juniper.

Because you're in a nature preserve in NY and a Chinese Juniper is not particularly invasive enough to establish there. Also the juvenile foliage matches many ERC we all have seen many times. Tree ID apps are still incredibly inaccurate when compared to an experienced human. They are not good and understanding juvenile vs mature growth differences.

If you want to know what specifically I used:
Foliage, growth habit, location, foliage, bark, foliage. I live in the city and have an old Chinese Juniper in planted in my front yard and I take cuttings from it. This is an ERC.

 

[Slimjim1187]

In another life I'd be interested to hear your reasons for undertaking such an intensive pursuit as bonsai if it's not that deep. Seems like some real mental wrangling there. This shit is a lot of work, like a lot. The only thing that keeps me going most of the time is how deeply passionate I am about it.

You also need to heavily consider if you are willing to care for this plant for the rest of your lives together if you are considering pulling it from it's place in nature. My understanding of your intention here makes me question if you have thought this through, or if you simply think bonsai is cool.

To be honest, though, you are gong to do what you want to do, beyond any reasoning here. I hope you at least think you are making a good choice. Have a good one!

I’ll save you from the suspense of waiting til your next life - it’s not very intensive when you have 2 or 3 trees.

And lucky for me, no mental wrangling needed!

 

[Wood]

 

[Orion_metalhead]

We arent "convinced" its virginiana, we know it is because we see them all the time - we can spot em going 80mph down the highway from 500yds away. There are no chinensis that would grow in a wild location like this - they just dont get spread into native areas, they get planted as landscape trees. They also dont exbibit the upright conical form. The foliage is much different on older specimen.

 

[coh]

Hi, this is one of probably 10 junipers in an entire nature preserve in upstate NY that I’ve found, and the only “interesting” one. I’m thinking about collecting it early next Spring. I don’t think the rocks are much of an issue; it seems that the roots most likely lead into a fairly accessible pool of soil.

What I like about it is the trunk and unique root structure (seems to have 3 main roots).

Problem might be: how could these 3 roots which sort of enter the soil horizontally be highlighted in a vertical pot? Any ideas out there?

I’ve collected junipers successfully before, but I’m not an expert by any stretch.

Thanks in advance for advice!

So what part of "Nature PRESERVE" do you not understand? The nicest word can think of to describe you is "selfish." Others have already used more appropriate terms.

I bet I’m one of three people in the last decade who have even walked within eyeshot of the tree. This isn’t a great sequoia. Get a grip.

Fortunately no one else like you has walked within eyeshot of the tree, or it might not be there for you to even see. Leave it alone.

 

[The Barber]

To just about everyone here with their moral posturing, it’s not that deep. There would be literally zero impact on… anything… taking this tree.

As for the likelihood of survival, it seems that the strong consensus from the community is that this tree wouldn’t survive, so I’ll take that warning and leave the tree be.

I’d like to hear why everyone is convinced it’s an ERC? To my eye and various tree ID apps on my phone, it seems to match to Chinese Juniper. I’ve looked at lots of ERCs and they look distinct to this one. Anyway, not saying I’m sure of anything, just want to know what tips people off to ERC vs Juniper.

1. Juniperus Chinensis is a low growing juniper, they don't grow upright like that, think low mounding ground cover shrub. They make good bonsai specimens due to the fact they prefer to bend, contort, and cascade rather than grow straight.

2. You are in New York, Chinese juniper are native to Asia, and non invasive.

3. ERC are native to the eastern US and have a general formal or informal upright style of growth depending on the conditions it is growing in.

You can find better material out there than this. I know where some rediculously nice ERC are that I leave be just because of how much of a pain in the ass they are to work with. Here are just a few I left in the ground this year just because they are a pain in the ass. I collected 45 trees this year, and walked away from a lot of really nice trees for 2 reasons, questionable survivability, or because the species just doesnt apply well to bonsai. Most property owners don't care about small trees that will never make lumber, ask permission, explain that you are interested in bonsai, and always backfill your holes, and make sure you promise to do so. You'll be surprised how many people are fine with it. On the other hand, digging trees without a permit in state or national protected forests carry hefty fines and imprisonment.

 

[bonsaichile]

Fair points and certainly important ones for a novice like me to hear. I will think more about it.

But I think there’s always a risk that a tree won’t survive when taken from the wild, even in the perceived to be simplest cases. This would leave your philosophy in a tough state. When would it ever be ok to collect a wild tree?

Further, there’s a possibility a collected tree would survive longer as a bonsai than in the wild. As I mentioned, the entire nature preserve has a single juniper (this one) of any size. The other 10 I found (and I scoured the entire 10s of acres preserve) were saplings. Based solely on that, I think it’s unlikely this one will survive terribly long in this location anyway, as it doesn’t appear terribly suitable for junipers.

Dang! You're too smart for me! Now I need to change my entire philosophy! Centuries of zen-inspired yamadori practice have been obliterated by your genius!

 

[Slimjim1187]

Dang! You're too smart for me! Now I need to change my entire philosophy! Centuries of zen-inspired yamadori practice have been obliterated by your genius!

You didn’t answer the question. When would it be ok?

 

[bonsaichile]

You didn’t answer the question. When would it be ok?

When you know what you are doing, which you obviously dont

 

[Slimjim1187]

When you know what you are doing, which you obviously dont

Is there like a scout badge for it?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

When would it be ok:

1. Collection is legal / you have permission.
2. It is an optimal time for collection.
3. The material to be collected is likely to survive given the aftercare you can provide.

If the material is going to be cleared or eliminated #2/#3 are not as important.

This was collected with permission from a landscape. It is much better material compared to any ERC and was slated to be removed for a new sidewalk. This is the type of material to keep your eyes open for!!:

 

[bonsaichile]

Is there like a scout badge for it?

I gotta agree with @LeftHandLuke : You are an asshole. And a troll. Since I dont feed trolls, I wont reply anymore to you and I will put you in ignore so I dont have to see your posts. Have a nice life!

 

[darzuo]

As I mentioned, the entire nature preserve has a single juniper (this one) of any size. The other 10 I found (and I scoured the entire 10s of acres preserve) were saplings.

There would be literally zero impact on… anything… taking this tree.

So you want to take the one tree that has shown it has the best chance of surviving and potentially reproducing, in a nature preserve no less. If it really is the only mature tree as you say, then taking it could quite literally be the difference between the species existing in the area or not a few decades down the road. Not sure if you're being serious with everything you're saying but the only way bonsai works — at the very least philosophically, and to an extent practically — is if we respect and put nature first.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I’d like to hear why everyone is convinced it’s an ERC? To my eye and various tree ID apps on my phone, it seems to match to Chinese Juniper.

Tomorrow when it's light out I'll take some ERJ photos (Not going to let up on my campaign to call these things junipers, LOL). Some of my younger trees even have the slight bluish tinge seen in these photos. In my opinion that tree doesn't look anything like a Chinese juniper... but there are lots and lots of Chinese juniper cultivars out there and that tree may look like one of them that I am not familiar with. All I can say for certain is that it doesn't look anything like a young shimpaku Chinese juniper...

 

[LeftHandLuke]

Yes, lord, I shall do thy bidding.

Absolutely no idea what you're babbling about.