Tenets of collecting

[Desert O'Piñon]

I drove through Nebraska but I don't remember any trees. The kind of place you could watch your dog run away for three days.

I'll second that. I grew up in northwestern Kansas and North Texas. The plains states are as you describe, for sure. But there are periodic "islands" of trees with potential for decent yamadori.
Here in the high desert? You like mesquite and sagebrush? lol
Out here, your dog gets loose and you only see him for about 100 yards before he either gets lost in the brown-out or tumbled by the wind.

 

[Cruiser]

What I saw was a rude response to something that I posted.

Yeah. No

Aren’t you a writer? Surely you recognize that starting a response like this sets a bad tone for the rest of your comments.

Wouldn’t have collected the first BTW Pretty non descript.

Then you insult my choice of tree to collect.

The second isn’t weird. It’s a common natural form of the tree.

Then, as someone who does not have experience collecting firs, tells me I’m wrong.

Over the years I’ve read many of your posts. There’s some gold in there, but sometimes you come across as blunt or mean. That attitude has finally reached me and I’m not ok with it.

 

[rockm]

What I saw was a rude response to something that I posted.


Aren’t you a writer? Surely you recognize that starting a response like this sets a bad tone for the rest of your comments.


Then you insult my choice of tree to collect.


Then, as someone who does not have experience collecting firs, tells me I’m wrong.

Over the years I’ve read many of your posts. There’s some gold in there, but sometimes you come across as blunt or mean. That attitude has finally reached me and I’m not ok with it.

I told you I don’t know much about collecting fir. I also gave an honest opinion of your tree and you took it as an insult. Fwiw I wouldn’t have collected it. In a post about odd looking trees it Looks pretty non descript to me.

Yes I am blunt. Take it or leave it. I said I’m uninformed and not experienced collecting fir trees so my opinion is hardly worth being insulted about

You seem to have some kind of trigger here for some reason with my advice not to collect odd looking trees. Have from the start. It’s a head scratcher.

 

[Cruiser]

You seem to have some kind of trigger here for some reason with my advice not to collect odd looking trees. Have from the start. It’s a head scratcher.

Do not misrepresent my opinion. I agree with the advice to an extent.

I agree that there are some oddities that do not go well with popular bonsai styles.

My point was that sometimes odd/unusual trees are worth pursuing and that “weird” lies on a spectrum that varies by species, features, and form. You have proven that by showing what you consider a weird oak.

BTW, here's a photo of my collected live oak. It's very unusual as well for its species. If you're curious I can explain why this tree is uncommon and weird.

To you, the oak is unusual because the form it exhibits is uncommon and weird for that species. That is exactly the point made about the first pictured fir. Instead of recognizing the point, your response was to say it wasn’t worth collecting.

 

[Gabler]

I've always appreciated rockm's bluntness. I don't think it was ever intended to be condescending. Even if it were, it's good information—or at least a well-informed opinion.

 

[rockm]

Do not misrepresent my opinion. I agree with the advice to an extent.


My point was that sometimes odd/unusual trees are worth pursuing and that “weird” lies on a spectrum that varies by species, features, and form. You have proven that by showing what you consider a weird oak.


To you, the oak is unusual because the form it exhibits is uncommon and weird for that species. That is exactly the point made about the first pictured fir. Instead of recognizing the point, your response was to say it wasn’t worth collecting.

The movement in the oaks trunk is not weird. It’s a feature on most live oak. What in unusual is WHERE the movement is. Low on the trunk. This was originally a 30 ft tall tree and about 300 years old at collection. The collector recognized the unusual features and why is would look natural as a bonsai.

Weird is indeed on a scale. The challenge is to recognize how that weird/unusual feature can be incorporated into a decent natural looking design

And FWIW I said I wouldn’t have collected it. Doesn’t mean others should or shouldn’t. I just don’t appreciate what you appreciate in it.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I've always appreciated rockm's bluntness. I don't think it was ever intended to be condescending. Even if it were, it's good information—or at least a well-informed opinion.

My first year (?) or so here at B-nut, I thought @rockm was kind of... a bit too harsh to want to engage with.

But... when I need cold, hard, real advice, he's my guy. He has great knowledge and experience, is willing to share it with us strangers, and gets nothing in return. @rockm is going to tell you like it is without any sugar coating. There is good value in that.

While he's a bit harsh sometimes, if he says something, it's probably worth consideration. You will make the final decisions on your trees anyways.

 

[chicago1980]

Plan your entry and exit.
Have patience
Plan for your safety
2x GPS
Know the types of wild animals in the area
Learn to identify animal waste

I'm a word Safety

 

[BrianBay9]

Plan your entry and exit.
Have patience
Plan for your safety
2x GPS
Know the types of wild animals in the area
Learn to identify animal waste

I'm a word Safety

My biggest risks often were ticks and poison oak.

 

[treeline]

Plan for your safety

Such an important point, especially when going after material that lives in exposed places. I’ve gotten much closer to dangerously hypothermic collecting trees in the desert than any other time I’ve spent in the backcountry. The wind and weather can really sneak up on you when you’re hyper focused on a rootball.

 

[chicago1980]

My biggest risks often were ticks and poison oak.

Yes depends a bit on the area you collect.

In the areas I search it cactus thorns are pain.

 

[Cruiser]

Plan your entry and exit.
Have patience
Plan for your safety
2x GPS
Know the types of wild animals in the area
Learn to identify animal waste

I'm a word Safety

Safety is no accident!

Your short list reminds me of the Fire Orders used in wildland firefighting... safety minded, minus the poop.

 

[rockm]

Plan your entry and exit.
Have patience
Plan for your safety
2x GPS
Know the types of wild animals in the area
Learn to identify animal waste

I'm a word Safety

Great advice even if you’re collecting in a relatively tame area with no large agressive wild animals. Cows and dogs can be a problem for instance. Cows can get you sued if they break a leg inthe hole you didn’t backfill

Also wear heavy work gloves. Poking around under trees exposes your hands to stuf like spiders and possibly venomous snakes. I was collecting trees in East Texas and was poking around under a little scrub oak in the early spring. Pulling leaves away from the trunk at ground level. Pulled up the largest black widow spider I’ve ever seen. And that was among a scorpion or two which are extremely common in many places but get overlooked. This one was hiding in the mailbox among the bills

 

[Cruiser]

My biggest risks often were ticks and poison oak.

Back in Massachusetts these things (poison ivy) were enough to keep me on trail most of the time.
Western Washington is bushwhacking heaven in this regard…basically no ticks or poison oak, though there is blowdown, thick brush, spikey plants, and the occasional cougar.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

I’ve gotten much closer to dangerously hypothermic collecting trees in the desert than any other time I’ve spent in the backcountry. The wind and weather can really sneak up on you when you’re hyper focused on a rootball.

I'll vouch for that! Got a collection permit for Lincoln National Forest a number of years ago to dig a Christmas tree. 60° when I left town with a bright yellow windbreaker, and by the time I got to the search area, the flakes were starting to fall. It was a difference of only about 30 miles as the crow flies, and roughly 2,000' increase in elevation, but a temperature drop of at least 30°. I finally found the perfect tree, and only about 10 minutes in, my fingertips were already burning, even with heavy leather work gloves. After an hour, I had the tree in the truck (2WD, bad idea, but I was obviously unprepared), and maneuvered my way back out of 6" of fresh wet snow.

I suggest high-viz colors as well. There's always a chance someone else is hunting for something other than trees.
Also, make sure you have a vehicle worthy of the roads/trails you will be traveling.

The Piñon didn't survive after the following May.

 

[Gabler]

Plan your entry and exit.
Have patience
Plan for your safety
2x GPS
Know the types of wild animals in the area
Learn to identify animal waste

I'm a word Safety

This is probably good advice, but I usually just grab my shovel and saw and walk off into the swamp to see what looks good. Sometimes I'll remember to put shoes on.

 

[Cajunrider]

Plan your entry and exit.
Have patience
Plan for your safety
2x GPS
Know the types of wild animals in the area
Learn to identify animal waste

I'm a word Safety

Plan for the safety of the animals as well. I don’t want to accidentally destroy their nest, den, etc., or kill them in defense.

 

[frankJ]

These principles/preferences are what matter most to me as a collector in the Pacific Northwest.
Some are universal, others are more subjective or specific to species around here.
This list is not comprehensive, there are probably things I forgot to add; and I’m sure that collectors in other parts of the world will have different values, so feel free to share what matters most to you.



The most important things:

Health: only collect healthy-enough trees or those with conditions that can be managed/cured. Learn to identify the differences between vigorous, healthy, stunted, afflicted, unhealthy, dying. Not just for a whole tree but its parts as well. These conditions may not be mutually exclusive.

Accessibility: go for trees that are accessible, legally and physically. This includes a trees roots. You may be able to get to a trunk, but if you can’t uncover the roots because they’re growing into a nearly-solid rock face, why even bother? If you don’t own the property on which a tree grows or do not have permission, do not collect there.

Movement: Subjective. I think most people want movement in their trees.

Proportion: this attribute is more important to me than movement. If a small tree has good proportions it is all that much closer to resembling a big tree. I’m talking about good canopy width relative to trunk height, short internodes/interwhorls, preexisting reduced foliage-size, small branch diameters relative to trunk size, and fine ramification. I’ll dig up a small tree that is straight as an arrow if it has good proportions because some of the work to make it look like a bonsai has already been done.


Other considerations:

—Deadwood/damage: Nearly all old big trees display deadwood or damage of some kind. I want these things in my bonsai.

—Size: A larger size lends itself to creating better proportion. Especially for trees with big leaves.
However, large trees can be a pain in the ass. They usually take longer to dig up. There’s more to manage: wiring, pruning, pinching, substrate quantity. It can be difficult/expensive to find large pots-I mostly just make my own at this point. Big trees may require more than one person to move. When sizing up a tree to collect, consider if it can even fit in your vehicle!

—Weird form or specific features: oddly shaped trees may have value simply because they’re rare. Some forms or features seen in large trees can be hard to find in small ones.

—Nice root bases are exciting to find, but most of the time they’re not readily apparent. When scouting trees I focus more on trunks and canopies. If a tree happens to have a great nebari, all the better. Based off what I’ve seen here, most collected-tree nebaris fall into the “ok” category. Rarely do I encounter one that is “bad”. Sometimes I get lucky and find trees with great bases because they were growing directly over large rocks, but most just need a bit of work.


Don’t see a collecting principle here that matters to you? Feel free to contribute.

Hello, I don't post often so please forgive errors. I would like to know how to collect my own trees in my own yard. I have an elm, I believe it to be a 'nana' pine and a group of connected maples (grown horizonally and pruned as a group). My pine and elm, when transplanted about years ago were set on a tile so the tap root could grow horizontally. I want to finally pot them. I was told to take a spade and make a cut about 12" away from the trunk, one cut each year. But I see posts here and on You Tube about folks who go and collect, then plant into trainer pots. Which way is the best way? The four cuts or to dig them up in one shot
The elm I have cut back for about 30 years and it is thick and full and about 24" tall. The pine...about same height and is in 'christmas tree' shape, The grouping of maples are offspring from my deceased and cut down Japanese red maple, species unknown. Why haven't I moved them ? I had an area I called my 'bonsai garden' but I want a flower garden there and most of the trees died. thanks for reading this and help will be appreciated.
As an aside. I am hoping I can cut them at once. I am 78 years old and i hope to live for long while,but 4 years of cuts, then harvest in year 5...hmmmm..might be a stretch..

 

[Goodbrake]

Hello, I don't post often so please forgive errors. I would like to know how to collect my own trees in my own yard. I have an elm, I believe it to be a 'nana' pine and a group of connected maples (grown horizonally and pruned as a group). My pine and elm, when transplanted about years ago were set on a tile so the tap root could grow horizontally. I want to finally pot them. I was told to take a spade and make a cut about 12" away from the trunk, one cut each year. But I see posts here and on You Tube about folks who go and collect, then plant into trainer pots. Which way is the best way? The four cuts or to dig them up in one shot
The elm I have cut back for about 30 years and it is thick and full and about 24" tall. The pine...about same height and is in 'christmas tree' shape, The grouping of maples are offspring from my deceased and cut down Japanese red maple, species unknown. Why haven't I moved them ? I had an area I called my 'bonsai garden' but I want a flower garden there and most of the trees died. thanks for reading this and help will be appreciated.
As an aside. I am hoping I can cut them at once. I am 78 years old and i hope to live for long while,but 4 years of cuts, then harvest in year 5...hmmmm..might be a stretch..

Hi Frank,

If you take some pictures I'm sure people here could help you better, but in my limited experience, elms are quite hardy and can take being collected in one go pretty easily, as long as you get enough roots when you do it. I won't comment on the pine as they're trickier and I have no direct experience with them, but it sounds like you took some preemptive measures when you planted it initially, so I suspect it won't give you too much trouble.

 

[Cruiser]

Hello, I don't post often so please forgive errors. I would like to know how to collect my own trees in my own yard. I have an elm, I believe it to be a 'nana' pine and a group of connected maples (grown horizonally and pruned as a group). My pine and elm, when transplanted about years ago were set on a tile so the tap root could grow horizontally. I want to finally pot them. I was told to take a spade and make a cut about 12" away from the trunk, one cut each year. But I see posts here and on You Tube about folks who go and collect, then plant into trainer pots. Which way is the best way? The four cuts or to dig them up in one shot
The elm I have cut back for about 30 years and it is thick and full and about 24" tall. The pine...about same height and is in 'christmas tree' shape, The grouping of maples are offspring from my deceased and cut down Japanese red maple, species unknown. Why haven't I moved them ? I had an area I called my 'bonsai garden' but I want a flower garden there and most of the trees died. thanks for reading this and help will be appreciated.
As an aside. I am hoping I can cut them at once. I am 78 years old and i hope to live for long while,but 4 years of cuts, then harvest in year 5...hmmmm..might be a stretch..

You should be fine removing the trees in one go.
It sounds like they are well-established. I’m assuming they’re healthy. Try to get as many fine roots as possible. If you have lots to choose from and need to reduce the root mass, cut large/long/girdling/downwards pointing and save smaller ones.