Young bonsai artist from Tennessee..astounding bonsai

[mat]

Great discussion. Would be awesome if Bjorn or Owen weighed in personally. Their videos are works of art in themselves.

As far as staying in Japan, for me the main motivation would be to keep working on those sorts of trees. There's just nothing like that anywhere else.

Being one of the big koi in the American pond is probably tempting, but staying on there, in the top level of the Japanese bonsai ocean, sounds much more fulfilling to me.

edit: grammar

 

[october]

Great discussion. Would be awesome if Bjorn or Owen weighed in personally. Their videos are works of art in themselves.

As far as staying in Japan, for me the main motivation would be to keep working on those sorts of trees. There's just nothing like that anywhere else.

Being one of the big koi in the American pond is probably tempting, but staying on there, in the top level of the Japanese bonsai ocean, sounds much more fulfilling to me.

edit: grammar

As the saying goes... the problem is not that we set our goals high and don't achieve them, but rather that we set them low and succeeded.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

There is a saying " You are entitled to your own opinions, but not entitled to your own facts"

You don't need to reread my post. I'll just condence it.. My first point. Many people that have trees are not that passionate about bonsai. People have a juniper or 2 and are satisfied to keep them alive. This is fact. Many people dabble in bonsai. There is absolutley nothing wrong with that.

Second.. money issues.. Fact, quality material is more available and much cheaper in Japan. This not opinion. It is a fact.

Third. attitute...So you are telling me that you have never seen someone with 6 months to 1 years experience talk as if they have been doing bonsai for years and can answer any bonsai related question. Sorry, but it is another fact. Happens all the time...

Like I said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts...You can convince yourself and believe a banana is red. However, it is not, the fact is, it is yellow.

Rob

Those that have 1 or 2 Junipers and are not passionate about Bonsai...
Really aren't Bonsai "Artist", or even "Hobyist", "Craftist", etc
They are like folks who say their "Golfers" cause they watch it on TV...
So, I don't even understand why you would bother bringing them even
into your conversation. Or associating them as the "Face" of Bonsai.
Let's just refer to them from now one as Bonsai "Tourist"...

As far as the price of quality material... I'm sorry, but I really find this
has little to do with the quality, or lack of quality, of American Bonsai,
when it comes to "Artist" style, and technique.

You yourself, have made some rather nice styled trees, from stock you
found at Home Depot. Are they "World Class trees" ??? Probally not, but
that does not mean they can not become so...

As far as folks being involved with Bonsai for a year, and claiming they
know everything... There are folks who have gotten into train model
building who I am sure have done the same thing... So ???

This is the Ultimate Downfall of "American Bonsai" ???
Really ???

 

[A Random User]

As the saying goes... the problem is not that we set our goals high and don't achieve them, but rather that we set them low and succeeded.

Rob

Who's setting their goals low ???
I mean when I work on my trees, I step up to
the plate... I give a 150 percent.

I mean who here decides they want to do a crappy
tree, and are happy when they succeed ???
Is some one here doing that ???

Oh, I could of made a "World -Class" tree, but decided
instead to make this pile of "Crap"...
Yea !!!!!!!

 

[october]

This thread turned/evolved into why it seems that the US is sometimes lacking in bonsai quality comapared to other countries. As you said, some people that can't even be considered bonsai artists. they keep a couple of junis and thats it. I would call them keepers, I guess. However, they are still part of the bonsai population. If a survery was taken on who is involved with bonsai. Statistically speaking, if you owned even 1 bonsai, you would be a statistic.

As far as the other thing.. I imagine that the qaulity might go up if great material was not thosands of dollars. Like you said, you can occasionally get some nice material from local nurseries that might turn out well. However, 1 tree out of 10,000 at home improvement stores cannot do much in the way of ratios. After all, what situation would yield the greatest quantity of beutiful bonsai. A nursery in Japan who sells nothing but high end pre material or 30 hardware stores selling landscape trees. Out of 10,000 plus trees. You might still only get a handful that might make good bonsai.

Also, the "know it all attitude" is persent in many things in society. It's just part of life.

I don't think that this particular tangent that this post has skewed off to has an end or a resolution. Afterall, it as just saying some things that contrtbute to why bonsai in the US may not seem as nice as in other countries. One thing is for sure. Japan has long been considered to have the best bonsai. Which is understandable, since it is their art. There is no point in arguing because no matter how you view it, in America, we are guests in the bonsai world. It is theie art that they shared and we adopted. Actually, to be accurate, bonsai was developed from the chinese art of penjing.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

OK... the problem I personally feel with "American Bonsai"...
if you could call it a problem...

Is that we are having to learn on the Fly here...
We don't have the history, we don't have the technique...
We haven't been doing it for hundreds of years...
I mean the Japanese and Chinese are good, but they should
be... they have been doing it for a little while.

I mean, how bad would it be if you worked at it as long as
they have, and still sucked !!!


But, see what we here in America, need to do is start being
more supportive of each other, and encourage each other
to be bold, and try new things... To experiment... To reach for
the stars if someone wants too... not just poo-poo them because
that's not what some "Old-Timer" would do...
Wel also, need to desperately "STOP" thinking of ourselves as
behind, in the Making of a good Bonsai race.We need to stop
thinking of our trees as inferior... or they will always remain so...

Man to think if Thomas Edison had said, I could build the light bulb...
but it will probally suck, so I just won't build it.

 

[october]

Supportive is a relative term in this discussion. Here is where opinion can play a part. You feel that if a person is not knowledgeable about bonsai simply because they are new..and they have an idea...It is ok to encourage that idea. Regardless if in time, the trees health might decline and when the person does the work, a year later, when they learn more, they probably won't be happy. Which in turns leads to them getting rid of the trees. If I am not mistaken, you want to encourage theie expression, even though, in the end, it is a good and highly probable that the tree wil not become a nice bonsai.

The alternative idea of support is...If the situation was someone coming on who doesn't know what to do or has an idea that is almost certainly going to lead to them being unhappy with the tree down the road or compromise the trees health...I think that, for the most part, it is good to share with them why there might be a better alternative. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting someone know that the outcome may not be favorable and the reasons why. No one is telling someone what to do. Just saying what might be best for the tree in regards to bonsai.

Although the beginning journey in bonsai is fun. Everything is so new and if you are open, you begin to realize how vast this art is. However, I will say this. Back about 14-15 years ago. I wish I had access to these sites and this information. Bonsai was such an isolated practice that if you needed a question answerd, you had to dig through book stores or maybe a library. Also, if you did find a book or someone that knew something, you would hope that the book or person could answer your specific question.

Rob

 

[gergwebber]

I set it on the groooouuunnnddddd!

 

[Vance Wood]

Who's setting their goals low ???
I mean when I work on my trees, I step up to
the plate... I give a 150 percent.

This does not make sense. You give 150% but you suggest to a beginner that he make a crapsai?

I mean who here decides they want to do a crappy
tree, and are happy when they succeed ???
Is some one here doing that ???

You may not, for your self, but you spent a whole lot of time fighting me inorder to tell a beginner to do just that?

Oh, I could of made a "World -Class" tree, but decided
instead to make this pile of "Crap"...
Yea !!!!!!!

Point by point in RED above. Do you really know what you believe about bonsai? It seems that you are conflicted.

 

[Vance Wood]

OK... the problem I personally feel with "American Bonsai"...
if you could call it a problem...

Yes it's a problem. With the exception of a few, in general Bonsai in America sucks.

Is that we are having to learn on the Fly here...
We don't have the history, we don't have the technique...
We haven't been doing it for hundreds of years...
I mean the Japanese and Chinese are good, but they should
be... they have been doing it for a little while.

I mean, how bad would it be if you worked at it as long as
they have, and still sucked !!!


Then how do you account for the quality of bonsai produced in Europe? They have been doing bonsai perhaps five years less time than we have. Remember there was this little event that took place over there called World War II they had to dig out of before they started doing bonsai and now they are kicking our collective asses artistically, and technically.


But, see what we here in America, need to do is start being
more supportive of each other, and encourage each other
to be bold, and try new things... To experiment... To reach for
the stars if someone wants too... not just poo-poo them because
that's not what some "Old-Timer" would do...
Wel also, need to desperately "STOP" thinking of ourselves as
behind, in the Making of a good Bonsai race.We need to stop
thinking of our trees as inferior... or they will always remain so...

The King's New Clothes? Our trees are inferior, and it is not because we don't have the material. It's because we wont look at our own trees and not see the flys that hover around them. Then we go into denial and make all kinds of excuses instead of trying to solve the problem. Walter Pall once said that America has the best and most extensive resource of Yamadori in the World. But; aside from that fact, I refer all of you once again, to The Graham Potter video where he makes a real spectacular bonsai out of a crummy Yew salvaged from a dumpster.

Man to think if Thomas Edison had said, I could build the light bulb...
but it will probally suck, so I just won't build it.

Invention; bringing something into existence that never existed before, and, mastering existing technology; learning how to do things that have already been accomplished, are apples and oranges.

I guess my problem is that you have not, or cannot, tell me, or show me, what a really good bonsai is from your point of view. I'm still trying to learn, inform me, I'm just some Old Timer trying to do bonsai while running back and forth to the toilet every ten minutes.

 

[Don Blackmond]

He has skill and is personable. That's a great combination. I think its awesome that he has taken the time and effort to make the videos available to everyone for free. What a great resource!

As for the desire the live in japan. Well, there is something to be said for living in a community. Bonsai people, let a lone professionals, are few and far between in the USA. Japan offers condensed bonsai communities. That sounds pretty appealing to me. Also, as much as you may not want to acknowledge it, in the USA people who practice bonsai are considered weird or creepy by other people who know nothing about the practice. And, in the USA, probably only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population knows anything at all about bonsai.

 

[Vance Wood]

He has skill and is personable. That's a great combination. I think its awesome that he has taken the time and effort to make the videos available to everyone for free. What a great resource!

As for the desire the live in japan. Well, there is something to be said for living in a community. Bonsai people, let a lone professionals, are few and far between in the USA. Japan offers condensed bonsai communities. That sounds pretty appealing to me. Also, as much as you may not want to acknowledge it, in the USA people who practice bonsai are considered weird or creepy by other people who know nothing about the practice. And, in the USA, probably only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population knows anything at all about bonsai.

There is no argument for your point of view. America has become so bound to their cell phones, or Smart Phones, what ever they are being called, that if it's not on a hand held it doesn't exist.

 

[october]

He has skill and is personable. That's a great combination. I think its awesome that he has taken the time and effort to make the videos available to everyone for free. What a great resource!

As for the desire the live in japan. Well, there is something to be said for living in a community. Bonsai people, let a lone professionals, are few and far between in the USA. Japan offers condensed bonsai communities. That sounds pretty appealing to me. Also, as much as you may not want to acknowledge it, in the USA people who practice bonsai are considered weird or creepy by other people who know nothing about the practice. And, in the USA, probably only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population knows anything at all about bonsai.

Hi Don, yes, when you mention you do bonsai, the majority of the time, the reaction is a look of why or surprise. For fun, here are some real responses I have received.

You do what?
What made you want to do that?
What do you mean train trees, you water it, thats its.
Bonsai..I thought it was just something you put in the corner and left there.
Bonsai.. Exploring your feminine side.
Bonsai..I thought that was popular when the Karate Kid came out. People still do that.

Rob

 

[october]

There is no argument for your point of view. America has become so bound to their cell phones, or Smart Phones, what ever they are being called, that if it's not on a hand held it doesn't exist.

You are right about that Vance. I am 42 years old. However, I have felt like your view point has been correct for years. Sometimes, it is so bad that you hang out with someone and their phone is constantly going off, like every 20 minutes. I have actually had to say..Ok, now this is ridiculous.

Rob

 

[Dav4]

For the record, I was considered creepy and weird WAYYYY before I dove into bonsai....just sayin'.


On a serious note, I feel that bonsai here in the USA has definitely improved since I got into it in the mid 90's. The advent of the internet (let's face it, who would know about Bjorn or Owen WITHOUT the internet) has had a huge positive effect in my opinion. Will we, here in the USA, ever reach the heights of bonsai seen in Europe, or Asia, for that matter? I honestly don't know. There are significant cultural differences at work that may allow bonsai in one place but not in another. For me, there is a distinct limit to the time and finances I can devote to the passion. My wife works 50-60 hours a week and travels ALOT, I work 25-30 hours a week, a house, 2 cars, 2 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, etc.. On paper, I'm living the American dream, but..... I'm stretched too thin financially and time wise to have a hobby that requires alot of time and money I do what I can, but that's only so much. I suspect that the majority of the hobbiists in bonsai here in the USA fall into the same demographic. I can't speak for folks in Europe...

 

[Vance Wood]

For the record, I was considered creepy and weird WAYYYY before I dove into bonsai....just sayin'.


On a serious note, I feel that bonsai here in the USA has definitely improved since I got into it in the mid 90's.

I got into it in the 50's and there is a marked improvement, but still not where it should be.

The advent of the internet (let's face it, who would know about Bjorn or Owen WITHOUT the internet) has had a huge positive effect in my opinion. Will we, here in the USA, ever reach the heights of bonsai seen in Europe, or Asia, for that matter? I honestly don't know. There are significant cultural differences at work that may allow bonsai in one place but not in another.

If there is a cultural difference it is because we have lost our self reliance, if we can't get government to do it we just make excuses.


For me, there is a distinct limit to the time and finances I can devote to the passion. My wife works 50-60 hours a week and travels ALOT, I work 25-30 hours a week, a house, 2 cars, 2 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, etc.. On paper, I'm living the American dream, but..... I'm stretched too thin financially and time wise to have a hobby that requires alot of time and money I do what I can, but that's only so much. I suspect that the majority of the hobbiists in bonsai here in the USA fall into the same demographic.

Please don't take this as a criticism of you, I cannot leave myself out of this demographic. However; there are two problems at work here. First; we have allowed the nay sayers to sell us on the theory that our bonsai are awful because we cannot or will not obtain more expensive or better stock. Second; having bought into the first lie we stop thinking that this is not true and settle for less than stellar results. Graham Potter, again that name, has a vedio titled Skid Pallet bonsai that blows that theory so far out of the water that it is almost orbital. I will go back and post it one more time---if I can find it again. Do your self a favor and watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mSnRm7PicYs

her's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vt52abVVpVo
I can't speak for folks in Europe...

They don't tend to accept excuses, they do what we have forgotten: Stop bitching about a problem and solve it.

 

[John Ruger]

I think Europeans appreciate the more artistic aspect of bonsai and simply embrace art itself much more than we in the states do; we really don't do that here. We haven't elevated art to the same level of cultural and historical importance probably because we haven't been at it that long; the USA isn't that old compared to the rest of the world.

So we may have been dabbling at bonsai longer than Europeans, but until recently I don't know that we've understood or accepted it's potential on a professional level. Let's face it, unless an activity can bring some degree of fame and a really good payday, we're not interested in it, as a society; this is how we base value.

We like art to provide for interactive entertainment; just look at the monies generated through everything from Broadway to professional sports and now compare that to the almost mausoleum atmosphere of a museum where some of the most beautiful and timeless works of art are displayed and a good portion of the crowd are bored school kids dragged there on a class trip.

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Vance,

Bonsai in the US is where it should be, because it is where it is. There are pockets of world class bonsai here, there are pockets of good bonsai here and there are pockets of poor bonsai here. I leave it to others to determine the percentage of each gradation. I will assume the same holds true in Europe. I think their percentages are different from ours, and that we see mostly just their good and world class trees.

Is bonsai in the US where you want it to be, or where you think it should be? Maybe not. Maybe it will get there, maybe it won't. I assume if it does get "where it should be" it will get there in typical American fashion, from multiple directions, working at cross purposes, with lots of noise, missteps and confusion along the way. Maybe some heated arguments too.

Blaming reliance on government in the US and then saying that the Europeans have the right no reliance on government attitude made me laugh out loud. I thought all the "anti reliance on government" people wanted the US to become less like Europe?

Regards,
Martin

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,

Bonsai in the US is where it should be, because it is where it is. There are pockets of world class bonsai here, there are pockets of good bonsai here and there are pockets of poor bonsai here. I leave it to others to determine the percentage of each gradation. I will assume the same holds true in Europe. I think their percentages are different from ours, and that we see mostly just their good and world class trees.

Is bonsai in the US where you want it to be, or where you think it should be? Maybe not. Maybe it will get there, maybe it won't. I assume if it does get "where it should be" it will get there in typical American fashion, from multiple directions, working at cross purposes, with lots of noise, missteps and confusion along the way. Maybe some heated arguments too.

Blaming reliance on government in the US and then saying that the Europeans have the right no reliance on government attitude made me laugh out loud. I thought all the "anti reliance on government" people wanted the US to become less like Europe?

Regards,
Martin

There is a difference between governments and the people they deal with.

As to the rest of it, after seeing what can be done with crap material why do we feel we have to accept being mediocre? I find it difficult to find myself in arguments with people who are satisfied with the status quo and get passionate to the point of blind stubbornness trying to defend a position that I believe cannot be defended. Please try to understand that it is not the material that's at fault, it's us.

 

[october]

Man, this thead is taking more twists and turns that a 500 year old juniper styled by Kimura...lol. Thats my bonsai joke for today. Seems like this thread has some poitical discussions creeping in...Maybe we should talk about something less heated and opinionated... Who's up for a discussion about religion...lol

Rob