Yamadori Scots Pine

[sorce]

if I cut all candles in half now to balance growth all over the tree?

If you cut all the candles in half now to balance the tree, the tree was balanced to begin with!


You are getting good advice here, but what I am gathering, is kind of a backward idea of hort/design.

This for example....

In late August I cut back all candles on this pine and you can see how it responded the following year!

We shouldn't be excited over this growth, since most of it must be cut off, it is a giant setback.

The idea is to have growth ONLY where we want it. This way we remove less energy, less energy removed, equals faster development.

Those 2 buds you aim to cut this back to, that is prime, no more than what you need!
I think they'll be good to cut back to next spring, before any growth. Maybe fall or the next spring.

because mine tend to make a couple extra throughout winter.

I am curious if this isn't the "bud reinforcement" period I note in late fall.

AndyJ. It is that period in the end of fall, where you can observe those 2 shoots to see of they will live after you cut back to them. If they "reinforce" you will see them further swell before full dormancy sets in.

That's when the tree reads conditions and decides what will grow in spring, it will reread in spring to see how much to grow.

Look for these signs.

Always use horticulture for design. Never for horticulture.

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks @sorce for taking the time to reply.

If you cut all the candles in half now to balance the tree, the tree was balanced to begin with!

Errr, we’ll yes! I don’t know why I didn’t see that! What I meant to ask was, should I cut all the candles so that they are the same size, thus balancing the energy?!

We shouldn't be excited over this growth, since most of it must be cut off, it is a giant setback.

The idea is to have growth ONLY where we want it. This way we remove less energy, less energy removed, equals faster development.

I have a question here. What do you do to a Scots pine to promote buds exactly where you want them? By following the advice I’ve been given by @TomB and @Paulpash my tree produced dozens of buds all over and I was then able to remove the excess and just keep buds I want, in the place I want them

AndyJ. It is that period in the end of fall, where you can observe those 2 shoots to see of they will live after you cut back to them. If they "reinforce" you will see them further swell before full dormancy sets in.

That's when the tree reads conditions and decides what will grow in spring, it will reread in spring to see how much to grow.

Look for these signs.

Does this mean that you shouldn’t reduce shoots down to two in autumn / fall? Should they all be left - three or more? - until the spring when you know two are alive?

Thanks again @sorce

Andy

 

[sorce]

balancing the energy?!

This falls into the hort/design. Crap, were gonna need a picture on this page. (Sorry bold, but ok!)

Seems you need an imbalanced tree, more health on bottom branches, more health on these we need backbuds on etc, so it will be a mix all over.

What are your design goals? (Rhetorical)

promote buds exactly where you want them?

Being flexible in where you can use them from is foremost! For me, this is an in depth whole tree process. I'll tag you in a couple recent threads I find an excellent representation of this.

Does this mean that you shouldn’t reduce shoots down to two in autumn / fall? Should they all be left - three or more? - until the spring when you know two are alive?

Since they are still clustered, in a fashion where they can't be reasonably divided until the candles extend, it is difficult to remove specific buds before then. Which is ok, so long as we are removing minimal always.

At this point, we need to start thinking about when we will show the tree.
Or better, allow the tree to decide when it will look best shown, and work toward that goal.

Until way far down the "refinement" line, I feel like all that tip growth is going to be cut off anyway.

Without ignoring the thousand "what ifs" and "it depends' ", I think these will be best shown directly after you are safe to cut back to those 2 smaller buds/branches.

So tip growth is of little concern. Except for balancing, but we must remember, especially in "development", that imbalance is the quickest way to good. We have to exaggerate imbalance in the beginning, so when the tree reaches it's prime, in 20-40 years, it is really really prime.

The American trend is to "have it done now", so a prime is never reached. Just ugly upside down trees!

This has to do with "selfishness".
We shouldn't be.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Not sure I actually agree with you there Wires. In late August I cut back all candles on this pine and you can see how it responded the following year!

View attachment 305797View attachment 305800

@Wires_Guy_wires ...

A quote from the other thread.

But I do disagree on the budding, a tree investing in hundred buds while we just need two is not a huge loss if we remove those buds in time. One bud needs as little resources as a single needle. Maybe even less. As long as it doesn't turn into a candle, the loss is minimal.

For me, I'd leave all that growth and cut way lower later. That's how I feel is the best way to prevent wasted energy.
It's this idea I have of getting 2 steps ahead of the tree. Working with it.

So there is never really a concern for removing those buds before they turn to a candle, because focus is already on those 2 reddish buds way further down.
Then, I prune outside of giant trigger times.
I think this avoids any wasted energy.

The whole beginning, though, of appropriate at all, will be based on when the tree will be shown.

So I believe in a different entire care cycle for a Scott shown in summer, or winter.
Or any tree.

My problem with the "current educational" system, is that we don't have scheduled that purposely need the National Show. Or a winter display.

The Japanese trained master's even use Kokofu timings. So our trees will never be as good.

I think you and I are the only ones trying to uncover these tiny nuances. Seeing the bigger picture.
Ignoring what's taught, to see more, but utilizing what's taught. To learn more!

Cheers!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I was just thinking about how this is a "transitional" part of our duties.

Which I think is the most misunderstood, because few people, like @Paulpash, have kept the material in the garden long enough to go through this stage.

Seems most people just fumble through it with some half use of refinement techniques, and a lot of chopping that never had to happen.

That said, Refinement patterns become easy.
Growing out is easy.

This transitional period is where we end up wasting years.

I would be removing "buds that haven't costed" yet, from further down the branch. Below those 2 (pic any) buds that will become our next fork.

I feel like we have to much focus on those outside parts of the tree that we will never even keep.

For me, that poodle end is giving the juice, the traffic, the health, to set up an appropriate branching pattern way way way before that poodle end.

There is a misunderstanding deep inside this "transitional" period. No offense to the "old guys" that have been through it, it is just the truth that they went through it with less information than we have available today. So while I think they contribute, a lot more than people who act like they know what this "transitional" period is, I think we still have a lot of methods to uncover.

These "methods", are mostly in communicating what we are actually talking about.

Putting an end to, being excited about growth for the wrong reasons.

Double cheers!

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

@Wires_Guy_wires ...

A quote from the other thread.


For me, I'd leave all that growth and cut way lower later. That's how I feel is the best way to prevent wasted energy.
It's this idea I have of getting 2 steps ahead of the tree. Working with it.

So there is never really a concern for removing those buds before they turn to a candle, because focus is already on those 2 reddish buds way further down.
Then, I prune outside of giant trigger times.
I think this avoids any wasted energy.

The whole beginning, though, of appropriate at all, will be based on when the tree will be shown.

So I believe in a different entire care cycle for a Scott shown in summer, or winter.
Or any tree.

My problem with the "current educational" system, is that we don't have scheduled that purposely need the National Show. Or a winter display.

The Japanese trained master's even use Kokofu timings. So our trees will never be as good.

I think you and I are the only ones trying to uncover these tiny nuances. Seeing the bigger picture.
Ignoring what's taught, to see more, but utilizing what's taught. To learn more!

Cheers!

Sorce

I don't think we're the only ones Sorce, I think there are many like us, but they don't want to offend the masters. I don't either, but it happens to happen sometimes.

I like fiddling with techniques that have proven effectiveness. Not ignoring what is taught, but questioning it and putting it to the test.
Just because someone has been doing something for 40 years because it worked, doesn't mean it's best for the tree, or for us. It means we have a safety net, and a darn good one. If you want to do bonsai well, stick to the protocol, it'll work.
I don't necessarily want to do bonsai, I'd like to know what is bad, what's worse, what's good, what's better, and what's best. And if it's better, best or worse, I want to know why.

The concept of the antithesis. Poorly explained in the scientific sense on wikipedia. I suck at it too because it's mental gymnastics.

If I cut now, X will happen. - The hypothesis. Stated as a fact.
If I cut earlier, X will not happen. - One antithesis.
If I cut later, X will not happen. - One antithesis.
If I don't cut at all, X will not happen. - One antithesis.
The hypothesis can only be factually true and perfectly correct, if the antitheses are all proven as well. Otherwise we're just making claims. I like both making claims as well as (dis)proving them.

All roads lead to Rome, some just take a couple thousand extra steps. But you only know which roads have the best views by asking around and walking a couple of them.
If Rome is the only goal, I'll take the plane and be there in less than 4 hours. But every plane flight within Europe is the same. Knowing what'll happen when I take the plane, kind of makes me want to do the walk. Just to see what happens. I mean, why is the proverb there in the first place? There must be some awesome roads out there!

 

[sorce]

Bloody hell! I never sent this!

think you and I are the only ones trying to uncover these tiny nuances

Sorry for this, I got to thinking about how it could make it seem like I'm grabbing your hands down some arrogant path of elitism. Pretty sure you know that path doesn't exist.

I don't even believe that statement, it's just, things have to come off as pretty bold in order to steer a lemming off its path, and that's what society, worst, forums, are best at, making us lemmings.

Just trying to point out that this place of tiny nuance exists. If we can get people to start working towards these tiny nuances, I think the collective mind will stop being so fascinated with shit that happens, like backbudding, like growth, like everything that a healthy tree just does. And we can make more strides towards what to do with that information.

Our beginning must start with the end in mind, even if it isn't the real end. It never is!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

offend the masters

With all due respect, fuck them! The best know to remain that way they will go one step further, at every opportunity!

Thereby omitting themselves from the fucking!

The worst thing about great passion is it's oneset mind. Most masters have great passion.

True masters are blank slates every day!

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

Hey folks. This tree has grown well and pushed lots of new needles but most of them seem to be quite pale, rather than nice deep green. If I push the tips gently, they feel firm and sharp. Could this mean there’s something missing in its fertilisation? It‘s still a development tree so I it’s been fed with chicken manure pellets, several times a year. Other than pale needles, it appears quite healthy. Should I be feeding it differently?

I’ve not worried about it until now, but I’ve just watched one of Ryan Neil‘s videos in a Scots Pine, and his needles are much darker than mine.

Any thoughts?

Thanks all

Andy

 

[TomB]

Try watering a little less, and supplementing your feeding with something that has more trace elements in it. Cold pressed seaweed (which is different to Maxicrop etc, though that can help too) is a good addition. Also epsom salts (1 tsp/gallon) can help to 'green things up'.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Mine go yellow too, from the base of the needle and darker towards the tip, when I water them too often.
When kept a bit more on the dry side for 3+ weeks, they go back to dark green.

 

[AndyJ]

Try watering a little less, and supplementing your feeding with something that has more trace elements in it. Cold pressed seaweed (which is different to Maxicrop etc, though that can help too) is a good addition. Also epsom salts (1 tsp/gallon) can help to 'green things up'.

Thanks Tom, I’ll try that. You agree they look a bit pale?

 

[AndyJ]

Mine go yellow too, from the base of the needle and darker towards the tip, when I water them too often.
When kept a bit more on the dry side for 3+ weeks, they go back to dark green.

I‘ll try cutting back the water a little too. Thanks Wires

 

[TomB]

Thanks Tom, I’ll try that. You agree they look a bit pale?

A bit. Not to the point where I'd be really worried about health, but it's a sign that conditions could be better.