Yamadori Scots Pine

[AndyJ]

Hey folks!

I’ve managed to get myself a Yamadori Scots Pine, dug from the mountains of Northern Ireland 4 years ago. The collector has had it growing in just horticultural grit since collection and after he was happy it had survived, he cut it back. That reduction has stimulated a number of adventitious and needle buds in a multitude of places across the tree.

My first plan is to get it repotted next spring into a Lava / Pumice / Akadama mix - I’m hoping this will stimulate lots of root growth and drive all those new shoots.

Couple of questions:

1). The tree has been out of the ground for around four years. The chap who collected it kept as much of the field soil on the rootball as possible but I am concerned that when I take it out of its pot, most of the grit will fall off the roots, so it’ll be a virtual full bare-root rather than a half-bare root. Any advice on managing this? Do I just HBR whatever soil is left?

2). Do I reduce the roots at the repot or just take it out of the field soil / grit and get it into L/P/A?

3). There are quite a few branches that aren’t pointing in “ideal” places, with shoots pointing down, inwards, etc. Is it OK to wire these now to get as many shoots pointing up towards the sun, even if they may not be part of the final design? (I’m thinking about trying to generate as much energy as possible....)

4). I think the large branch on the right hand side might have to go - I’m not sure this would work in a final design (although I’d be interested to hear BNutters thoughts); should I take this off in spring too - or will this be too much?

Thanks all.

Andy

 

[AndyJ]

Some more pictures

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

My first question is where all the needles from last year went. I have a huge amount of scots pines and their needles stay in place for two whole years, sometimes three.
I'm not seeing that in this specimen and I'm wondering if it might be unhealthy.

I would not reduce the roots when repotting, because the HBR might be enough of an insult already. Same goes for removing branches, I'd do that in the next autumn when they have returned their energy.
As for wiring, I don't think there's ever a bad time for that. I have wired scots pines before potting them up after collection, and they didn't flinch. A few of those were of the same age as this one.

 

[AndyJ]

Hey Wires,

Not sure about the needle situation. Good spread of what is there, but you're right, they do appear to be only young needles - there is no evidence of two or three year old needles on the tree.

So just a repot into L/P/A next spring then - and maybe a bit of wiring. What do you think about that lower branch? Keep or remove?

Thanks again.

Andy

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@AndyJ
What would you like this tree to become? How tall? How large a diameter of a trunk you want?

What you have is rigid, vertical trunk, then a knot, one branch goes out, the trunk wiggles a bit and then is various straight branches at sharp angles.

I could make a tree out of the first branch, or I could get rid of the first branch, and make a tree from what is left.

Either way, if it were mine I would probably plant the tree on an angle, I don't like vertical trunks,.

I suggest you either make drawings, or otherwise look at different angles at which to repot the tree.

I would repot in spring or the ideal time for your local climate. Let it recover a full growing season. Then begin wiring and pruning in 2021.

Make a plan you like first, do nothing until you have a plan.

 

[sorce]

My first plan is to get it repotted next spring into a Lava / Pumice / Akadama mix - I’m hoping this will stimulate lots of root growth and drive all those new shoots.

@leatherback and I were just talking on a @Japonicus thread about repotting too often. In fact, too soon is what I was referring too...

Since...

Repotting a tree as the first measure is like buying a car and pulling the engine for overhaul the second day. Few of us are good enough to understand how to do this successfully, or of it needs it at all.

But as @Walter Pall also always says, we repot too often as well.

So this is the beginning of the ...
"Don't Repot Yet" movement.
DRY!
Soak DRY Soak DRY!

So...

Since the roots are the very engine driving life, we must consider them for every action.

@Wires_Guy_wires says it's ok to wire right away after collection, but what we can gather from his name, not only does he like to wire, but he also has the tree wired in, these are the prerequisites to working straight away, along with a pot full of roots that can also hold the tree in place.

There are plenty of collected Scots wobbling around near death in pots somewhere, owned by a feller named @fuckwiringinatree he won't have the same advice.

Enough with the human interaction and internet communications advice....advice.

Roots.

Repotting sets em back, even "untouched".

Watering correctly stimulates root growth.

The new shoots you want to drive, wouldn't be there in the first place if the tree didn't have the roots to make them. Those same roots will drive them.

Once driven by Correct Watering.....
You will see the return of those 2 year old needles, those 2 year old needles are what will drive your Repot.

Repotting doesn't drive the tree.
The tree drives the repot.

It will be safe to Repot once you have those 2nd year needles, since they will basically act as your "sacrifice".
Remember, the tree wants to live, so if and when repotting gives it a blow, sets it back, the first thing it will do to cope is drop old needles.

What if it only has a few new needles?
Dead AF! Or so suffering work must hault.

Of YOUR future future far future Repot....

HBR or half bare rooting if I'm not mistaken, is much more of an emergency procedure.
Folks have taken to it with all types of trees that never needed the extra care.

Or worse....

Folks are using HBR as a "more forgiving" way to Repot trees that aren't healthy enough to be repotted and don't need it anyway.
Which, back to the car analogy, is akin to pushing it on the rims 6miles to the tire shop, thinking it was ok because you removed some weight from the inside.
You're fucking up the rims, doing double work getting it there, and triple work with expenses for new rims.

That shit must stop.

Before you know it, HBR will get a bad rep because people are being stupid with the process. Not understanding how it works as a tool.

Your tree first needs and should get about 2 years of good growth before another thought of Repot.

What Size Pot do you wish for it to fit in?

That is the most important consideration when it comes to removing or working roots.

Simply, you want enough roots in the space of your future pot to allow the tree thriving health.

Best case scenario looks like this.


You snip that fatty which contains less than 20% of your entire root mass and plop that bitch in a shallow pot.

If we were only so lucky, right!?

Since we can't know exactly what we will encounter, we must use the math to answer our questions. Since it never changes.

Keep as many roots as you can.

75% of Fine Feeders kept is usually good math.

So let's say this is the situation...

Not enough roots at the top to go all the way to, so we chop some of the low roots, in hopes to get more roots up yonder, knowing it won't yet fit in our final envisioned pot.

This is why it is important to have a few pot options available to us the first time we Repot a bucketed tree.

To all you collecters out there...
A simple picture of the roots would be worth an extra $100 for a tree, just saying. Knowledge is power and you can charge for it.

So you see...

The thing that guides us is our final pot and tree health.

People slip pot just to slip pot, that's the stupidest fucking thing that we can ever do.
Since it provides 0 benefit to the end goal and is working against it most of the time.

People forget that more roots outside of the area that the future small pot will be is working directly against our bonsai goal.

Why grow roots you will cut off?

Better to provide a better growing atmosphere (geosphere?) For new roots to grow closer to the trunk, useable keepable roots.

It a balance of .....

The extra growth and the risk of cutting off those roots in the future.

Sometimes it's worth the risk but that's a tree by tree case and rarely is it worth it.

Especially since we know it's small pots that drive more growth, or nurseries would start trees in 5gl buckets.

Think of all the work that goes into repotting stages from plug pots to 5gl and higher...
Mad steps...mad labor.
Yet the growth obtained is worth the $.

So go slower.

Resorce.

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

T’rrific post, Sorce, thank you for taking the time to put this together. So, no repot for my pine next year, watch for some nice 2 year old needles growing and developing and then reassess in 2021. And no wiring yet either.

Thanks again

Andy

 

[AndyJ]

Hey folks!

I followed the advice on here and didn’t repot this tree - I did put a brace in the pot and brought up one of the lower branches to give me something of an apex. Well, it’s come through the winter well and is budding up really nicely! There are candles all over it and they are all extending and I’ve gone through and reduced all the tips to just two candles - hope this was the right thing to do?

There are also lots of tiny buds shooting on the insides of the tree - on some of the lanky branches. I think the tree is healthy but I need to get more foliage on it; I’m worried that if the outer shoots grow to strong, they’ll shade out and take all the energy from these tiny buds. How do you manage this type of growth? I know @TomB and @Paulpash are good with Scots in the UK - what would you do? Do you manage this differently in the US?

Here it is today, along with some nice candles and some of the buds circled in red.

 

[TomB]

From the pictures, I doubt you need to worry about the inner buds being shaded out. If it looks like it’s a problem later in the year, you can always loosely wire the outer stuff out if the way.
Remember foliage *makes* energy.

 

[Paulpash]

My take is that it does need more foliage - it's not dense enough yet to worry - keep the backbudding engine running. If you cut back now we're back in first gear again. The two lower branches seem very thick (will they be suitable?) Have you sketched out a vision for this tree? Final height and keeper branches, remembering that height can be shortened by using branches wired up to become a new leader? This is very important if you are to move forward with purpose.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks gents, appreciate your feedback.

So even though all this new growth won’t shade these inner buds @TomB , how do I get them to grow out? I need to chase the foliage back as the tree is a bit leggy - do I have to wait until those interiors get bigger / stronger before cutting back to them? What would happen if I cut back to these small buds, would they survive or die? Should I cut all, new growth back In August to stimulate more interior buds? Or should I just leave this one this year to get some vigour?

@Paulpash - do you mean cutting back now puts us back into first gear? Or cutting the newgrowth back in August puts us back into first gear? Or both?! You’re right about the bottom two branches - they are probably too thick for the final design but the thickest of these carries quite a lot of foliage - I thought I should keep this on for now until there is more strength in the rest of the tree and maybe jinning these later on

Thanks again

Andy

 

[Potawatomi13]

Folks are using HBR as a "more forgiving" way to Repot trees that aren't healthy enough to be repotted and don't need it anyway.
Which, back to the car analogy, is akin to pushing it on the rims 6miles to the tire shop, thinking it was ok because you removed some weight from the inside.

[QUOTE="Before you know it, HBR will get a bad rep because people are being stupid with the process. Not understanding how it works as a tool.
Your tree first needs and should get about 2 years(at least)of good growth before another thought of Repot.
[/QUOTE]

Hear, Hear! All good sayings!

One additional suggestion: for your "excess" buds/sprouts consider directional pruning whenever having these and AFTER tree has grown freely and gained vigor. These are GOLD! Want to change direction branch grows without added wire? Keep bottom bud to lower branch direction, left bud to go left, right bud to go right, and so on. Branch can have kinks added by odball buds taking over and add to interest of tree. All movement need not come from wire.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hey folks!

I followed the advice on here and didn’t repot this tree - I did put a brace in the pot and brought up one of the lower branches to give me something of an apex. Well, it’s come through the winter well and is budding up really nicely! There are candles all over it and they are all extending and I’ve gone through and reduced all the tips to just two candles - hope this was the right thing to do?

There are also lots of tiny buds shooting on the insides of the tree - on some of the lanky branches. I think the tree is healthy but I need to get more foliage on it; I’m worried that if the outer shoots grow to strong, they’ll shade out and take all the energy from these tiny buds. How do you manage this type of growth? I know @TomB and @Paulpash are good with Scots in the UK - what would you do? Do you manage this differently in the US?

Here it is today, along with some nice candles and some of the buds circled in red.

View attachment 302940

Mama Mia Great need for class in wiring here. Not to discourage; it's just really bad. Tree has potential straight up is not it. Fertilize,fertilize,fertilize.

 

[AndyJ]

Mama Mia Great need for class in wiring here. Not to discourage; it's just really bad. Tree has potential straight up is not it. Fertilize,fertilize,fertilize.

Thanks for feedback @Potawatomi13 wiring isn’t my strength unfortunately but I’m getting better. Most of this tree is decent but there are some parts that as you say, is really bad! I’m feeding the crap out of this thing to try and get some strong buds pushing all over.
You say the tree has potential straight up is not it, what would you suggest?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Personal bias against straight upright trees. Mostly boring. Straight trunk at bottom needs to lean some way or other. Usually direction chosen by which way surface roots have most roots at surface of soil where leaving trunk. Very difficult to design tree at a distance and is YOUR tree. I tend to like second trunk/big branch to keep. Do you have local club to get mentoring help?

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Pota. Unfortunately I’m disabled and housebound so can’t get out of the house - all my learning is done on the internet and through YouTube - thats why I ask a lot of daft questions! . All my trees have been bought in line too so am a bit restricted as to what I get and how good it is. @TomB and @Paulpash are also on a UK based board and they’ve both helped me a lot with my Pines.

Tree definitely inhe straight side low down so will need to be replanted at an angle at next repot

 

[TomB]

Thanks gents, appreciate your feedback.

So even though all this new growth won’t shade these inner buds @TomB , how do I get them to grow out? I need to chase the foliage back as the tree is a bit leggy - do I have to wait until those interiors get bigger / stronger before cutting back to them? What would happen if I cut back to these small buds, would they survive or die? Should I cut all, new growth back In August to stimulate more interior buds? Or should I just leave this one this year to get some vigour?

The answer to all of this depends on how well that inner growth develops this year.

If you end up with at least 3 vigorous, active inner shoots on a branch - say at least an inch of growth with lots of healthy needles - then I’d probably be happy to remove the outer stuff. If not, then I wouldn’t remove the new outer shoots completely, but would leave a few pairs of needles.

From what I can see you’re getting good results with your pines. If you’ve not been following the videos Peter Warren has been posting on youtube recently, have a look at the one on scots pine pruning and the one called something like ‘energy’. You’ll probably find them very useful to reinforce the stuff you already know.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Understood. A few years ago I was privileged to meet one confined to wheelchair by polio who was genius instinctive master mechanic and race car crew chief. One story he was given double overhead cam V8 race car engine in a box(just parts)and asked to see if he could make race winning engine out of it. Had never seen one before. He did it. Much can be done with what one is given if will so desires.☺ Will help if possible but tree remains yours to choose design.

 

[AndyJ]

Understood. A few years ago I was privileged to meet one confined to wheelchair by polio who was genius instinctive master mechanic and race car crew chief. One story he was given double overhead cam V8 race car engine in a box(just parts)and asked to see if he could make race winning engine out of it. Had never seen one before. He did it. Much can be done with what one is given if will so desires.☺ Will help if possible but tree remains yours to choose design.

Amazing story! Thanks for sharing! I’m determined to get as good as I can given my restrictions - and feel I have improved mainly thanks to folks on here and WeeTrees. Can’t see me everbeing good enough to rebuild an engine though!

My plan is to leave the tree in this pot for the rest of this year and then look at repotting it next spring - I’ll be able to see how the roots are laid out and will use that to help me determine the planting angle. This year, I really want to get as much growth on it as I can ready for any future cut back.

 

[AndyJ]

The answer to all of this depends on how well that inner growth develops this year.

If you end up with at least 3 vigorous, active inner shoots on a branch - say at least an inch of growth with lots of healthy needles - then I’d probably be happy to remove the outer stuff. If not, then I wouldn’t remove the new outer shoots completely, but would leave a few pairs of needles.

From what I can see you’re getting good results with your pines. If you’ve not been following the videos Peter Warren has been posting on youtube recently, have a look at the one on scots pine pruning and the one called something like ‘energy’. You’ll probably find them very useful to reinforce the stuff you already know.

Thanks Tom. I’ll dig about for those Peter Warren videos and have a watch. I might be back to you later this year when it gets to cutting back time! The other pines you have helped me on are growing well and full of candles this year