Why should a tree bow to the viewer?

[Wood]

There are lots of shows that need to raise the level of the tables

The PBE had slightly higher than normal tables for everything except the XL category, and it really worked to the trees' benefit.

On the topic of dredging up old threads on this subject:

Thread 'What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?'

Jan 31, 2019

Have heard this for a long time now and I do see the merit of it in the most basic sense, however I have a TON of specimen where it simply seems it'd look silly...maybe the rule is more for coniferous stuff and I'm improperly extrapolating to deciduous broadleafs! In any case I'm eager to hear thoughts on the whole "tilted towards the viewer" idea, I mean even in a 'perfect formal style' I'd feel you'd want it to be truly vertical / not sloped at all (and then there's so many trees like mine where their nebari basically determines the angle, ie tilting forward is at the...

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[coh]

I'm a little skeptical of the explanation that Adair gives. I do mostly tilt my trees but I've found the explanations lacking. I agree with the statement of "great depth". I've dealt with this idea of foreshortening in a different media. This photo is a relief carving I did in the 80's which puts the viewers point of view on the end of the boom. It is very foreshortened and makes an illusion of great depth in a space of about an inch. It doesn't make the boat or anything in the composition look shorter than it actually is. It just compresses the space. Most of the illusion is accomplished by the converging lines of the ropes, boom and and objects becoming smaller as they recede into the background.
,,,

One of the problems with Adairs explanation is that you don't see the same tree without the top tilting forward. You just accept what he's said as "it must be true" because it's a very nice tree.
A few years ago my pals and I went to the Columbus, OH club show. The exhibit was full of trees leaning away from you......enough that we all commented on it and said "they mustn't have gotten the memo". However, going back through the show and looking again, I realized that I wasn't really offended by it. Sometimes we just get too sensitized to a convention and think there's no other way.

I still haven't explained why it works, so have at it.

Like you, I find the explanations unsatisfying (and this is obvious from some of my previous heated debates with Adair in those older threads). My thinking is that the effect of leaning the apex forward is minimal at best, and is probably limited to taller bonsai that are viewed from the optimal position (roughly mid trunk). I think if you are viewing the tree from too high, which is common at shows, the leaning apex might actually work against the intended illusion. And for mid-sized and shohin I don't think it works at all.

I've thought that an interesting experiment would be to create some artificial "bonsai" where the apex angle could be adjusted (leaning forward, upright, leaning back), and then show those trees to non-bonsai people. Ask them if the trees seem different, and if so, how...and do some of the trees appear larger than others. You couldn't use bonsai people because they have been pre-conditioned to believe that the leaning apex makes a tree look better or bigger or whatever.

 

[rockm]

Like you, I find the explanations unsatisfying (and this is obvious from some of my previous heated debates with Adair in those older threads). My thinking is that the effect of leaning the apex forward is minimal at best, and is probably limited to taller bonsai that are viewed from the optimal position (roughly mid trunk). I think if you are viewing the tree from too high, which is common at shows, the leaning apex might actually work against the intended illusion. And for mid-sized and shohin I don't think it works at all.

I've thought that an interesting experiment would be to create some artificial "bonsai" where the apex angle could be adjusted (leaning forward, upright, leaning back), and then show those trees to non-bonsai people. Ask them if the trees seem different, and if so, how...and do some of the trees appear larger than others. You couldn't use bonsai people because they have been pre-conditioned to believe that the leaning apex makes a tree look better or bigger or whatever.

Yeah. Right. I’m not preconditioned to believe anything. like it or disbelieve it or hate it because it’s some kind of indoctrination into the bonsai police it remains a technique that does add to foreshortening of a trunk. Regardless of the size of the tree.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Why do bonsai lean towards the viewer?
(1) From a perspective standpoint, it creates an optical illusion of scale/height.
(2) From a design standpoint, it opens up the structure so you can see the tree and the lines. If you lean the tree away from the viewer, much of your design becomes hidden, such that you feel like you need to rotate the tree to see it.

 

[Gabler]

Why do bonsai lean towards the viewer?
(1) From a perspective standpoint, it creates an optical illusion of scale/height.
(2) From a design standpoint, it opens up the structure so you can see the tree and the lines. If you lean the tree away from the viewer, much of your design becomes hidden, such that you feel like you need to rotate the tree to see it.

View attachment 582882

Am I missing something? The trees in that picture look like they're leaning away.

 

[Gabler]

Yeah. Right. I’m not preconditioned to believe anything. like it or disbelieve it or hate it because it’s some kind of indoctrination into the bonsai police it remains a technique that does add to foreshortening of a trunk. Regardless of the size of the tree.

I keep seeing the word foreshortening, but I don't think I'm understanding what you (and others) mean when you use the term. I looked it up to make sure I was remembering correctly from art class, and I remembered correctly. Foreshortening is when you draw or paint something shorter than it is to make it look like it's receding into the distance or pointing toward you. It's a matter of perspective.

I'm not sure how that concept applies to bonsai. Firstly, bonsai occupy three dimensions, not two. Secondly, you're not chopping the trunk shorter to make the tree appear to lean toward you when it's really a flat, two-dimensional object. The tree is actually leaning toward you, and it appears shorter as a result. That sounds like the precise opposite of foreshortening. What am I missing?

 

[RoadManDenDron]

The trees in that picture look like they're leaning away.

To me it looks the trees are leaning away yes, but the apexes appear to come forward

 

[coh]

Yeah. Right. I’m not preconditioned to believe anything. like it or disbelieve it or hate it because it’s some kind of indoctrination into the bonsai police it remains a technique that does add to foreshortening of a trunk. Regardless of the size of the tree.

Humans can convince themselves of lots of things that aren't really true. In your case (and many others I believe), you're in so deep that you have lost any sense of objectivity on the matter. Which is fine, it doesn't matter to me what you believe.

 

[coh]

Am I missing something? The trees in that picture look like they're leaning away.

It's interesting. If you're standing relatively close to a tree that is much taller than yourself, the distance to the trunk at eye height will be much less than the distance when you look up at the apex. So to reproduce that in a bonsai, why not lean the apex away from the viewer?

 

[Gabler]

It's interesting. If you're standing relatively close to a tree that is much taller than yourself, the distance to the trunk at eye height will be much less than the distance when you look up at the apex. So to reproduce that in a bonsai, why not lean the apex away from the viewer?

That's what this thread is about. Why do we lean the tree toward the viewer?

 

[ABCarve]

This is foreshortening. Does it make my head look small or my fist look big? If the camera was farther away would it make my whole body look shorter or taller in relation to my fist? I don’t think either. Your brain sees someone simply with an outstretched arm by putting together the visual clues that it has amassed in its experience.

Why do bonsai lean towards the viewer?
(1) From a perspective standpoint, it creates an optical illusion of scale/height.
(2) From a design standpoint, it opens up the structure so you can see the tree and the lines. If you lean the tree away from the viewer, much of your design becomes hidden, such that you feel like you need to rotate the tree to see it.

View attachment 582882

When was the last time you looked at a bonsai from the base of the trunk, looking up, with a wide angle lens?

Yeah. Right. I’m not preconditioned to believe anything. like it or disbelieve it or hate it because it’s some kind of indoctrination into the bonsai police it remains a technique that does add to foreshortening of a trunk. Regardless of the size of the tree.

I don't think anyone here is trying to subjugate the bonsai police. I just think its a discussion of effectiveness and its explanation. I do like @coh idea of a wire tree that could be manipulated to both positions to see just how effective it is. Even though bonsai are 3-D objects they do have a frontally fixed point of view and that allows for a lot of tricks (see below). Even though we can see the sides we want to admire them from the proposed front. We study them from the sides and back and any other point of view.

 

[rockm]

Humans can convince themselves of lots of things that aren't really true. In your case (and many others I believe), you're in so deep that you have lost any sense of objectivity on the matter. Which is fine, it doesn't matter to me what you believe.

I’ve seen some pretty good trees in pretty decent detail. I volunteer at the museum. The trees there, particularly the Japanese trees, mostly have some sort of forward lean. Even the smaller ones.

In working on those I have found the ones that use this technique to be a bit more engaging and balanced to the viewer. I believe the forward bow brings the viewer into the tree and helps balance out the image.

Might be personal taste. I hardly revere traditional bonsai. The majority of my trees are anything but, but I do try to use techniques that work. This one mostly does

 

[JudyB]

This is foreshortening. Does it make my head look small or my fist look big? If the camera was farther away would it make my whole body look shorter or taller in relation to my fist? I don’t think either. Your brain sees someone simply with an outstretched arm by putting together the visual clues that it has amassed in its experience.View attachment 582892


When was the last time you looked at a bonsai from the base of the trunk, looking up, with a wide angle lens?


I don't think anyone here is trying to subjugate the bonsai police. I just think its a discussion of effectiveness and its explanation. I do like @coh idea of a wire tree that could be manipulated to both positions to see just how effective it is. Even though bonsai are 3-D objects they do have a frontally fixed point of view and that allows for a lot of tricks (see below). Even though we can see the sides we want to admire them from the proposed front. We study them from the sides and back and any other point of view.View attachment 582894

sorry man, these ducks all look basically the same to me.... maybe if they weren't in a row....

 

[ABCarve]

sorry man, these ducks all look basically the same to me.... maybe if they weren't in a row....

That’s the point.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Am I missing something? The trees in that picture look like they're leaning away.

If they're leaning away, how can you see their apexes?

 

[Paradox]

Honestly, I don't buy the we evolved from arboreals theory, sorry.

I just think that simply, the tree looks more aesthetically pleasing if its leaning toward the viewer.
Its not complicated, it just looks better. Kinda like someone facing you with open arms seems more welcoming and attractive than someone with their back to you.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Bonsai is an art form that has developed over more than a thousand years and in that time they’ve tried just about every possible angle and trick to produce trees that are aesthetically pleasing. These we often refer to as rules, although they really are just aesthetic guidelines and the bowing forward bonsai is one of them. Use it if you want a traditional bonsai or do it your way and see if it works for you. In the end you may find that a thousand years of trial and error got it right.

 

[Gabler]

Honestly, I don't buy the we evolved from arboreals theory, sorry.

I just think that simply, the tree looks more aesthetically pleasing if its leaning toward the viewer.
Its not complicated, it just looks better. Kinda like someone facing you with open arms seems more welcoming and attractive than someone with their back to you.

Why does someone facing toward you with open arms look better? Because it's a welcoming gesture.

 

[Gabler]

Bonsai is an art form that has developed over more than a thousand years and in that time they’ve tried just about every possible angle and trick to produce trees that are aesthetically pleasing. These we often refer to as rules, although they really are just aesthetic guidelines and the bowing forward bonsai is one of them. Use it if you want a traditional bonsai or do it your way and see if it works for you. In the end you may find that a thousand years of trial and error got it right.

I'm more interested in figuring out why the forward lean looks better. It's kinda strange when you think about it.

 

[penumbra]

Lots said. Good arguments. I'm not however, convinced. If they lean forward or away, its up to the designer and their vision. This thread in its entirety is not convincing to me and I am fine with that.