why is it impossible to find part 2

[Corwyn13]

So in the other thread several points were raised that I thought were worth separating and having a discussion about, namely:
1) what is a reasonable expectation for a pre-bonsai - in terms of size, style, age, training,
2) what is a reasonable ( or at least average price range one should expect to pay for one)
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?


as a relative newbie perhaps, I don't have a clear or reasonable understanding of these to things.
For vendors please understand that I do not wish to offend or bad mouth anyone I am simply using these as an example to learn and aid in the discussion.
So I was looking at Wigerts Bonsai which I found to be very reasonably prices and with good quality trees (based on pics only, and the assumption that they are representative of actual trees I would receive)
in terms of size, branching and the kind of pot they are planted in, for PRE bonsai.

Bald Cypress – Forest – 7″ Pot – Wigert’s Bonsai

vs say this example of what I would consider at best topiary and not seeing how this follows, conforms or helps in developing ANY recognized style of Bonsai I am aware of
for 3 times the price. https://brusselsbonsai.com/green-mound-juniper-complete-gift-dt4002gmjcg/

And while I understand that I am paying a large percentage of the price for expertise and time. can some one explain to me the justification for 10,000% price difference
between

American Larch Tree

foxrivervalleynursery.com

and
what I see as a pre bonsai that received it's first wiring


Again, please accept that I am not trying to offend anyone or be a troll. I am, as a newbie, asking questions that seem legitimate and relevant.

on a side note, I also wonder about the integrity of businesses that do stuff like this (because it begs the question, if I look hard enough will I find a 3rd site where it might be $300?)
https://www.bonsaioutlet.com/bonsai/twin-trunk-american-larch-in-a-round-ceramic-drum-pot-10696/ vs

Twin Trunk American Larch in a Round Ceramic Drum Pot. 10696

Come and visit the North East's Largest Bonsai Nursery.

www.nebonsai.com

 

[BrianBay9]

I think of my tree purchases as a balance between time and money. Yes, one can buy a sapling of an appropriate species for a small amount of money, but you'll gave to spend a significant number of years to develop that yourself. Or you can spend money on a more developed tree (thicker base and trunk, nebari, aged bark, decent primary branch placement) and save the years - skip ahead to more detailed styling. Pricing of either is up to the seller. The value you see in either is up to you.

Brussels has better trees, but tends to market the lower end stuff. I don't shop Bonsai Outlet either. Most people are happy with Wigert material and pricing. Also look at Brent Walston ( https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/ ). I would rather buy in person than on line. Go to local shows and clubs and you can get much better deals.

 

[pandacular]

For consideration, the tree in the thread below was purchased for $200 from a specialty nursery in the Seattle area.

Phasing work on my Shimpaku Juniper

just from a quick search on here, I found this tree. The trunk line with it's crazy twists and turns does really remind me of this little tree I have. Thanks for the inspiration and the history. I think I'll go put this tree on a few blocks to see if I can pull the cascade vision out of it, this...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[LuZiKui]

To echo @BrianBay9, what really changed my perspective on the cost of bonsai and pre-bonsai trees is the consideration of time and what you are willing to pay for it. If, for instance, you buy a 15 year old tree for $300, you're basically paying $15/yr. Think about growing a seedling, watering, wiring, pruning, repotting, and all of the things that go along with it and for me personally I would GLADLY pay $15/yr to skip all of that.

I know I'm not the first to say this but I think most people follow this roadmap when they start bonsai:

Stage 1- Oooh, I can plant seeds and have unlimited trees for free, how cool!
Stage 2- OK, I'm running out of room and all I have are sticks in pots. I'll get some nursery stock to speed up the process and it's not too expensive.
Stage 3- The nursery stock is fine, but there are usually a lot of major issues that need to be addressed and will likely add years before it's ready for bonsai
Stage 4- I've expanded my benches and I'm running out of room again and I'm tired of having trees that aren't really close to bonsai. I'll start buying pre-bonsai
Stage 5- I finally understand why someone would pay more for a "finished" bonsai tree (or at least one that has all the main stuff, good branching, nice trunk thickness, nebari, already been potted into a bonsai pot).

And part of it is up to your personal preference. Do you want really cool looking bonsai trees in really nice pots that you can sit around and admire, or do you really enjoy the growing process and want all seedlings and starters that are 5-10 years out from becoming bonsai.

So for that larch you mentioned above, $9 buys you a little pencil thick (or less) seedling that is, at a minimum, 5-10 years away from being anything other than a twig in a pot. But the $600 larch you posted is probably 10-20 years old, has been worked on, has a twin trunk, and is at the stage where you can start doing real work on it.

Also, if possible you should try to visit a nursery or bonsai nursery with someone in your area who is knowledgeable. I think everyone on here has gotten the bonsai bug and ran out to buy more trees, only to realize later the tree you thought was cool actually has really big issues.

Sorry I don't have more specifics on price/size/age of pre bonsai, it depends so much on the species and your geographic location. Your best bet is to start visiting nurseries so you can get an idea.

 

[Tums]

I like buying cheap bareroots and plugs but a lot of them will just be unsuitable for use as bonsai. So now I tend to order at least 3-5 when I want to end up with one half decent plant. Bad roots, bad branching, dying on you when you try to correct the flaws, dying for no apparent reason at all... And then comes the whole growing-out process. There are some smaller nurseries out there that do grow with bonsai in mind, like Wigert's, Evergreen Gardenworks, Kaede Bonsai, Left Coast, Riverbend Gardens, Kusa Farm... But those are already going to charge a more premium price.

As for pricing, I think Bonsai West and NE Bonsai can be pricey, but I get it. I bought a ficus for $125. Someone had to pick this tree as having potential, think about the design, pot it, prune it, wire it, take care of it. How much time did that take for labor costs alone? Then running a retail store with overwintering is more overhead. Now they have to mark it up to actually make any money. Vs the cheapo bareroots where the grower does thousands at a time and just ships you the top of the pile. Sure, something like the Brussels gift kit is not a good value, but the crap they move probably keeps the business going so they can import the nicer stuff.

 

[pandacular]

Always remember that it is the sellers job to price something at a level that makes financial sense for the investment of time, effort, love, and money into the product. It is YOUR job to determine if it is worth that price. Very often it is not, and that does not reflect the seller trying to rip you off or something.

 

[rockm]

So in the other thread several points were raised that I thought were worth separating and having a discussion about, namely:
1) what is a reasonable expectation for a pre-bonsai - in terms of size, style, age, training,
2) what is a reasonable ( or at least average price range one should expect to pay for one)
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?


as a relative newbie perhaps, I don't have a clear or reasonable understanding of these to things.
For vendors please understand that I do not wish to offend or bad mouth anyone I am simply using these as an example to learn and aid in the discussion.
So I was looking at Wigerts Bonsai which I found to be very reasonably prices and with good quality trees (based on pics only, and the assumption that they are representative of actual trees I would receive)
in terms of size, branching and the kind of pot they are planted in, for PRE bonsai.

Bald Cypress – Forest – 7″ Pot – Wigert’s Bonsai

vs say this example of what I would consider at best topiary and not seeing how this follows, conforms or helps in developing ANY recognized style of Bonsai I am aware of
for 3 times the price. https://brusselsbonsai.com/green-mound-juniper-complete-gift-dt4002gmjcg/

And while I understand that I am paying a large percentage of the price for expertise and time. can some one explain to me the justification for 10,000% price difference
between

American Larch Tree

foxrivervalleynursery.com

and
what I see as a pre bonsai that received it's first wiring


Again, please accept that I am not trying to offend anyone or be a troll. I am, as a newbie, asking questions that seem legitimate and relevant.

on a side note, I also wonder about the integrity of businesses that do stuff like this (because it begs the question, if I look hard enough will I find a 3rd site where it might be $300?)
https://www.bonsaioutlet.com/bonsai/twin-trunk-american-larch-in-a-round-ceramic-drum-pot-10696/ vs

Twin Trunk American Larch in a Round Ceramic Drum Pot. 10696

Come and visit the North East's Largest Bonsai Nursery.

www.nebonsai.com

"1) what is a reasonable expectation for a pre-bonsai - in terms of size, style, age, training,
2) what is a reasonable ( or at least average price range one should expect to pay for one)
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?


Your three questions are unanswerable, mostly. and yeah, you don't have a sense of much of anything--yet. You can change that, but you're not going to get far online...

There are no certain gauges for any of your questions--it's all wildly subjective. A "Reasonable" price for me for a pre-bonsai, for instance, might be a $900 collected oak, or bald cypress stump sourced from a reputable collector. Another "reasonable" source for me would be spending four hours digging my own large native tree --understanding that that stump has a long, deep cost in time and effort, particularly in root and top regeneration (it's hardly "free" even though I didn't write a check for it).

A "reasonable" pre-bonsai for someone just starting out in bonsai is anyone's personal guess. A $100 for a tree when starting out seems astronomical (it's worth that if it's been established in a bonsai pot, as root reduction goes a very long way in developing a tree), $500 seems face-melting...$50 maybe...buuuuuut, generally you get what you pay for. You will likely spend that $50 five different times for mediocre to poor quality trees as you learn, so this is relative, as well.

There are no lines delineating nursery stock--which are trees sourced from landscape or bonsai nurseries and aren't mallsai (which are typically grown in masses at wholesale-type nurseries in the U.S. or even overseas), pre-bonsai and bonsai. It boils down to the work that needs to be done to each particular tree in front of you. Some are further along--have established branching, trunk diameter, sorted roots, or have been chopped or otherwise shortened. Others not so much, they may still be way too tall and need a severe reduction i height and root mass, have no developed branching. All of this is assessing the level of work needed on any given tree and what you're willing to pay to acquire that tree. If you're starting out, you can't see what that level is, so you have to learn.

To do that learning, it really pays to actually GO to places like New England Bonsai, Bonsai West, etc. Looking on line is confusing, unproductive and potentially fraudulent (if the seller is an unscrupulous crook--there are a few, primarily on EBay and Etsy) Online has a lot of bullshite stuff to sort out. Actual established long-running nurseries with commercial operations you can physically visit have little BS or they wouldn't be in business. At those facilities, You see everything in 3-D and IRL. You get a firm sense of how big the tree is, or how small, the level of detail already present (small leaves, increased ramification, roots, etc.) Online sellers obscure all those intentionally, or unintentionally.

A rule of thumb in looking at material is that at most good bonsai places, the price you're paying is for time--time taken to develop a trunk, branching, ramification, nebari, etc. Less time, less development. Collected native trees are a market all their own and can be wildly varied as to who's paying for what and why.

Get out and look. Join a club --which is about the most economical and practical way to get good to excellent trees. Members ALWAYS have trees they're trying to get rid of to make room for something else. Most clubs have auctions every year and you can get really good deals. Also, the most valuable thing clubs offer is simple experience. All of the members have started out where you are. They've already found the right sources for pre-bonsai, pots, and stuff.

 

[hampton]

Re: clubs - North East Bonsai Society meets in Topsfield, it’s a bit outside the city. To be honest, I’ve only been able to make a handful of meetings due to life but the folks I’ve met are super great.

 

[rockm]

So in the other thread several points were raised that I thought were worth separating and having a discussion about, namely:
1) what is a reasonable expectation for a pre-bonsai - in terms of size, style, age, training,
2) what is a reasonable ( or at least average price range one should expect to pay for one)
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?


as a relative newbie perhaps, I don't have a clear or reasonable understanding of these to things.
For vendors please understand that I do not wish to offend or bad mouth anyone I am simply using these as an example to learn and aid in the discussion.
So I was looking at Wigerts Bonsai which I found to be very reasonably prices and with good quality trees (based on pics only, and the assumption that they are representative of actual trees I would receive)
in terms of size, branching and the kind of pot they are planted in, for PRE bonsai.

Bald Cypress – Forest – 7″ Pot – Wigert’s Bonsai

vs say this example of what I would consider at best topiary and not seeing how this follows, conforms or helps in developing ANY recognized style of Bonsai I am aware of
for 3 times the price. https://brusselsbonsai.com/green-mound-juniper-complete-gift-dt4002gmjcg/

And while I understand that I am paying a large percentage of the price for expertise and time. can some one explain to me the justification for 10,000% price difference
between

American Larch Tree

foxrivervalleynursery.com

and
what I see as a pre bonsai that received it's first wiring


Again, please accept that I am not trying to offend anyone or be a troll. I am, as a newbie, asking questions that seem legitimate and relevant.

on a side note, I also wonder about the integrity of businesses that do stuff like this (because it begs the question, if I look hard enough will I find a 3rd site where it might be $300?)
https://www.bonsaioutlet.com/bonsai/twin-trunk-american-larch-in-a-round-ceramic-drum-pot-10696/ vs

Twin Trunk American Larch in a Round Ceramic Drum Pot. 10696

Come and visit the North East's Largest Bonsai Nursery.

www.nebonsai.com

Also, your questions about the two larches--here's something to know--collected trees are not comparable to nursery grown trees, they're apples and oranges, for the most part.

The collected tree has been grown in an environment that has (hopefully) given it some unique characteristics-scarred trunks, thick bark, etc. The nursery tree will likely be pretty vanilla in character. Additionally (and probably one of the biggest differences that adds to cost) is collected trees require collection...they require someone to go out and find them, then have the understanding to actually get them out alive and to continue to keep them alive for a few years until they've recovered from the shock. That generally means complete regeneration of a new set of roots. They don't go into containers easily. Having one thriving in a container post collection is a valuable asset.

Meanwhile, a nursery grown tree doesn't have to go through any of that recovery--it's grown its entire life in a container most likely. It already has a compact root system (although neglect by a grower can cancel all that out)

The final difference between the nursery tree and the expensive twin trunk larch is the pot. The twin trunk is in what looks to be a medium quality Japanese pot--which can run between $30-$70 depending on maker, etc.

And FWIW, I do think that collected larch is on the high side in pricing, but I've not seen it in person. Photographs online are very unreliable as to size and detail, so its photo might not be doing it justice, who knows. Asking the seller for additional photos can help with that kind of thing.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Personally, I don't like the term "pre-bonsai". To me, if it's pre-bonsai it's raw material. If it's been worked, pruned or shaped, it's young or early bonsai.

Value is so subjective it's hard to define. One way of looking at it is if there's a lot more demand than supply, the value is higher and the opposite is true. From there, it's just what someone is willing to pay.

As far as paying for time, a tree that's say 3" in diameter and 25-50 years as a bonsai, someone has been caring for that tree for all that time and he deserves to be paid for that time.

 

[pandacular]

Personally, I don't like the term "pre-bonsai". To me, if it's pre-bonsai it's raw material. If it's been worked, pruned or shaped, it's young or early bonsai.

It often feels somewhat redundant with the idea of phases of development/refinement. Everyone defines it differently. I think the term mostly makes sense if it's up for sale, as describing a good piece of starting material (roots worked a bit, some branch selection) is very different from something more complete.

A lot of people seem to call anything that isn't show ready as "pre-bonsai", which is silly.

 

[Cajunrider]

As @rockm said, your questions are pretty much unanswerable. Let me use bald cypress as an example species and give you some of my thoughts on your questions.
1) what is a reasonable expectation for a pre-bonsai - in terms of size, style, age, training,
Size and age are not the parameters for classification as pre-bonsai. I can go to the landscaping nursery, pick out a large BC in a 300 gallon container (Yes they do sell them that big). That BC is not a pre-bonsai. It will take years before I can get that root ball flat and shallow. It will take even longer than that to get the telephone pole trunk to have any taper. Similar issues exist with pencil size seedlings you get at nursery growers or broomstick BC you get at Home Depot or Lowes.
Style and training are way too subjective to even count. I can spend 5 minutes with some wire and bend / twist a nursery BC to weird shape and stick it in a pot. Does that qualify the tree as pre-bonsai?
So for me a pre-bonsai BC is one where:
A) The roots are sorted and can be potted in a shallow pot. The roots will have a decent flare that can make our eyes believe that the trunk above it is a sizeable tree. This will mean a collected BC with the roots pruned to a shallow layer or a nursery BC that has been root pruned and grown for a while in conditions conducive for development of root flare.
B) The trunk has enough taper to create a perspective of a larger BC. The taper can be from excellent swamp collected BC, from a chop and grow, or from carving. How it is done is up to the grower and whether that is acceptable is up to the buyer.

In short: The BC has to possess the structure of a bonsai regardless of size or age to be considered a true pre-bonsai. Using this as a measure some of the trees I've sold are pre-bonsai. Others are simply good stock for development to be pre-bonsai.

2) what is a reasonable (or at least average price range one should expect to pay for one)
A) Trunk size set the basic scale for the price for me. Nurseries used caliper to set price. I also use that to set my base line price. If you go to a nursery and find a BC in a 30 gal container with a trunk 3" at the base, it usually goes from $150 to $300. Yet some people scoff when I suggest similar price for pre-bonsai at similar size.
B) The time to develop the structure (roots/trunk/canopy) will be added to the price. Price of keeping the tree per month comes into play, plus the price for pruning/wiring/carving to achieve the bonsai basic structure. Some people told me I spent little time with my collected trees in development. The substitute for that development time is the purchase of access to places where the trees possess the basic structure and the knowledge to collect and prune the BC to make it suitable for bonsai and keeping it alive. This can easily double the basic price based on size for BC.

3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?
A) Bonsai basic structure not there or severely lacking = nursery stock (mall bonsai).
B) Bonsai basic structure is there and continuation on the same path will lead to a good bonsai = pre-bonsai.
C) Bonsai: the structure is complete for whatever style is chosen for the tree. All the tree needs is continuing refinement for improvement. This is where style comes into play. We can change the style of an established bonsai and knock it right back to pre-bonsai in some cases.

I only discussed bald cypress but you can infer that to other species. If you still find it impossible to get a pre-bonsai BC given the above information, then may I say that your expectations are way too high for the amount of money you care to spend.

 

[pandacular]

just realized i linked the wrong post within that thread above, which has a pciture of a VERY different tree.

Phasing work on my Shimpaku Juniper

I have a shinpaku juniper (Juniperus chinensis) that I purchased as a pre-bonsai (though I'm thinking penjing!) from Robert Cho at Asia Pacific Gardening. This tree has a really interesting trained trunk line, and tons of foliage, some of which has been trained as well. Here are some pictures of...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[dbonsaiw]

Your three questions are unanswerable, mostly. and yeah, you don't have a sense of much of anything--yet. You can change that, but you're not going to get far online...

This is spot on. When picking material, the questions really are (1) what do I want the tree to develop into; and (2) how do I get there from the material I am considering. These are really difficult questions to answer when just starting out because we really don't yet understand the bonsai process or what we want to accomplish.

From a 30,000 foot view, bonsais can be viewed as made up of 3 components - (1) nebari (radial root flare); (2) trunk (movement and taper); and (3) branching (ramification). Over long periods of time, we will use various bonsai procedures to develop these 3 components. When we buy a tree, we are jumping into the bonsai process at a certain point in the tree's development and the question becomes at what point do we want to jump in? It can be a seed or seedling, but one needs to understand that this tree will need to grow for some time before any bonsai work can be done on it. Maybe we go to a big box store or a nursery and buy a landscape tree because this tree had more time to grow and develop a thicker trunk. But here we need to understand that no root work has been done on it and the trunk probably has no movement/taper (or at least nothing to speak of for bonsai purposes). The question becomes how do we get the nebari right and develop movement/taper? Maybe we went to Brussels' and purchased a tree with the nebari started and with a more developed trunk. Now the question becomes how to "finish" the trunk and develop better branching.

Of course, we don't all have the same goals in mind. I am not looking for the same material that Walter Pall is looking for. His starting point is what I wish my end point looks like.

 

[mwkohler]

As a beginner, I don't mind buying beginner trees for now. I don't know what I don't know, so keeping the trees alive, learning to style and develop them is something that needs to be learned. Killing a $50 low end mass produced bonsai feels a lot less painful than killing a 25 yr old $500 tree.

I know that I can't develop a JBP from a seedling likely in the remaining years I have left. The skills I still need to develop to start a seedling and develop and trunk and branching just aren't in my bag of tools yet. If I want a JBP, I will need to trade money for time. Doesn't mean I didn't just get a pair of 4 year old seedlings to develop in hopes that 10-15 years from I can start making something of them.

In some respects it is likely easier to focus on a single tree species for a few years and look for those. Get a mix of mature and juvenile trees to work on. Try propagating more. Cotoneaster, ficus, Chinese elm are recommended places to focus early on.

Going to a nursery or online can be overwhelming if you don't have a specific thing you are looking for.

 

[pandacular]

As a beginner, I don't mind buying beginner trees for now. I don't know what I don't know, so keeping the trees alive, learning to style and develop them is something that needs to be learned. Killing a $50 low end mass produced bonsai feels a lot less painful than killing a 25 yr old $500 tree.

I agree with all of this, but would much rather work a $50 piece of solid nursery stock than a cheap piece of low end bonsai. The nursery stock challenge threads are a big source for inspiration if you're looking.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Whatever you decide on, just be aware that when that tree goes into a "proper" bonsai pot in bonsai soil, the trunk diameter growth will slow to a crawl. One of the first things I ask a new bonsai prospect is "How big do you want the trunk to be?" If it's anywhere close to, or north of, twice the diameter, I tell them to keep the tree in good potting soil in a nursery-sized container for a few years. Trying to grow and ramify branches, develop taper and trunk size in a bonsai container can take 5 times as long.

I'd also advise to get your "tree killing years" behind you with some affordable nursery stock.

 

[Corwyn13]

This is spot on. When picking material, the questions really are (1) what do I want the tree to develop into; and (2) how do I get there from the material I am considering. These are really difficult questions to answer when just starting out because we really don't yet understand the bonsai process or what we want to accomplish.

From a 30,000 foot view, bonsais can be viewed as made up of 3 components - (1) nebari (radial root flare); (2) trunk (movement and taper); and (3) branching (ramification).

Of course, we don't all have the same goals in mind. I am not looking for the same material that Walter Pall is looking for. His starting point is what I wish my end point looks like.

SO I guess this is the part that I dont see. Again my aim is to learn not to pic on vendors or anything - as a newbie.
But the 3 things you pointed out ( as well as several others) IS EXACLTY WHAT I DONT SEE!! to me as newbie I look at these in this order

1)trunk movement
2) branching - by which I'm referring to primary and secondary 9 basic skelaton
3) nebari which will come in time.
what I am trying to learn understand is if
1) I just dont know how to look/see this in trees available.
2) am expecting too much
3) if they are not there!
For example I looked at a tree that had a main trunk, but ALL branches were growing from ONE side only.

Bonsai styles, shapes and forms - Bonsai Empire

Over the years many styles to classify Bonsai trees have been advanced, closely resembling circumstances in nature. These styles are open to personal interpretation and creativity, meaning that trees

www.bonsaiempire.com

So is it a windswept or a windswept cascade or simply a poorly designed tree or I jsut dont understand what's happening>
Re the price and reasonable- I guess I should explain a bit more about what I mean
as a newbie I feel irresponsible buying a $1000(never mind something more expensive, I could throw money at) tree that has had time and effort put into it to only kill it because I lack the basic skills and knowledge to recognize when I did something wrong, or something is going wrong with the tree!
and yes I understand that bare root 5-year-old tree for $20 from a nursery will take years to develop ( but to me that is part of the challenge/enjoyment)
somewhere in the middle of those two extremes should be a happy medium that is clearly shows even a newbie the fundamental elements of the 3 things. and I am having a hard time with that!

 

[Joe Dupre']

Also, don't think one person, one book, one seminar or one video will give you the information you need. Be observant. Learn WHY things behave as they do. I'd guess that almost half of my bonsai "knowledge" came from observing and figuring things out on my own.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

There are some things one gets from practice, others from observing… and learning can be expanded with the knowledge in good books coupled with immediate practice and observation.

Developing the’ long view’ takes time out. Bonsai can’t be rushed.

For me establishing the roots and negative is absolutely the first order of business. Roots drive everything. That means knowing which media does what and the positives and negatives of each media, choosing wisely, and act accordingly to make the best results from that specific media tree - system.

Once the roots are in order and can be relied on to respond properly everything above becomes so much easier, stying, growth and ramification.

Cheers
DSD sends