Where to purchase Diatomaceous earth...large particles

[yashu]

The first article was very specific. It concerns the use of DE solely against insect pests in the stored grain (see “dry”) environment and never even touches on mycological implications. That said, if I ever have a silo of corn or barley and I’m dealing with weevils DE will be a top consideration.

With regards to the second article. This was the only one to state outright; “Yes, diatomaceous earth kills fungus”. However… a) This is a non-scientific article. b) The only scientific article linked (via a hypertext link) was about the effects of DE on external, insect parasites on laying hens in the free range environment. c) This article does not even include a bibliography to back up claims with actual research. d) In place of a bibliography this statement was found; “GardeningBank.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.”, which in my opinion renders it useless as unbiased research.

I did some more poking around the web for the source of the fungicidal claim and the only scientific sources I could find concerning this issue suggested that DE as a soil component could be a prophylactic fungicide by killing fungus gnats within the soil and thus preventing the spread of harmful fungus BUT the paper concluded that it was actually ineffective against larval gnats.

In summary, I’m open to new information of the non-anecdotal variety but for now I will continue to use DE as a primary soil component and would feel ok suggesting it to others based on my personal experience. Attached is the DE/fungus gnat paper. It’s very “dry” reading but informative.

https://journals.ashs.org/downloadpdf/journals/hortsci/40/6/article-p1806.pdf

I don’t know if the following will put this issue to bed but I feel it is important to note that the product “Rootella X” is a mycorrhizal inoculant for large scale farm applications. The vehicle for the fungal inoculant is, you guessed it, diatomaceous earth, in fact the product is 70% DE with the remaining 30% being the fungal spores. I think we could all agree that a company would probably not package their mycorrhizal inoculant in a fungicide.

https://www.groundworkbioag.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/GW181002_Rootella_X.pdf

 

[TN_Jim]

Been using Napa de for several years now. I sift the fines. Mycorrhiza, annelid worms and other harmless critters like isopods are common at repots etc.

Occasionally a mushroom will jump up. Spiders and other species with exoskeletons don’t seem to mind walking across soil surface and hanging out. All good

 

[yashu]

An Introduction to Bonsai Soils – Bonsai4Me

www.bonsai4me.co.uk

It’s unfortunate that some of the claims in this article are flat out false and apparently not researched. I know a lot of people look to that site for accurate information.

 

[LittleDingus]

I grow numerous things in 100% DE: NAPA 8822.

One way it keeps insect populations down is the same way other inorganic soils keep insect populations down: no decaying mater for the insects to eat/lay eggs in. The sharp edges do rip into snails and slugs and the fine powder does get into the plates of small insects as well. But it does need to be powdered for that.

I can also attest that mycorrhizae grows just fine in DE...provided there is some organic matter mixed in to feed it. I mix in coco coir and/or fir bark to provide structure at times. I've had mushrooms in my oaks with as high as 70% DE. I also routinely get crusted soil indicative of mycorrhizae...sometimes so encrusted I need to rake it to break it up to drain water better. Like most (all?) Inorganic soils...some organic material should be mixed in to aid fungal growth.

DE is a dissicant when dry. Dry DE can pull moisture out of roots. Like all other soils, one must learn how to water effectively for the individual soil characteristics. It is so important to understand watering and not simply try and follow some formula.

As a followup: I went looking for some pictures I thought I had to backup my claims. I can't find the mushrooms growing in my live oaks, but I did find this

[Dingus] quercus gambelli #1

Yep. I think that's why the one I dug has made it so far. Lava and pumice, and twice-daily watering! I do need to be carefull here in spring and fall. Our spring this year has been cool and rainy so I've been trying to let it dry out when I can. Cool + damp = rot :( My biggest fear with...

www.bonsainut.com

Algee and mildew growing on 8822 with chunky coconut coir. That was one pot that I needed to rake because the surface was so choked water was puddling! A quick brush of the surface broke it up enough that it became fast draining again

What I do not understand is "firing". The DE I use is the NAPA 8822 that shows colors when wet: browns...not greys. And the material looks like tiny stones. I occasionally get 8822 that looks more like grey clay bits...similar to what I usually get with opti-sorb from AutoZone. The grey stuff is clearly clay and breaks down quickly. I do not belive this material to be DE but is calcified clay. True DE should look more like rock and I do not think should be fired or need to be fired...it's fossilized already.

NAPA has at least 2 distinct "grades" of 8822 that I have purchased from the same store For the intended purpose, they perform the same. For a soil/soil additive, they are very different!

The "good stuff" should change color when wet. The left is damp...the right is dry. Both piles were pulled out of the same pot so they are a bit "dirty" compared to fresh DE.



I the dropped a bit of water on part of the right pile for this picture



The other "grade" of DE I have received is much softer and stays a uniform grey when wet. I hate it and don't keep it around when I come across it. Unfortunately, I've gotten both types in identical looking NAPA 8822 bags from the same store. It does appear to be lot or shipment related so I've started buying a single bag to see what kind it us then buying more when it is the good stuff

Some other notes on DE:

* The small particle size has never been an issue for me. I don't bother sifting fir size. I do pour a crap ton of water through fresh material to drain out the dust! The dust is nasty: don't breath it! It is also messy...it will stain wood easily. I rinse over grass so the dust doesn't stain my deck.

* DE is porous. It needs a deep watering for it to hold moisture. Light watering can just pour straight through and be dry again quickly. Conversely, once it has fully absorbed all the water it can, it can remain too wet for most plants. Learn to "read the colors"

* DE doesn't wick moisture from place to place. Water evenly! Once it dries out, it's a bit hydrophobic. If a pot dries out too much...or the DE is fresh, watering will form water channels that the water will follow leaving some areas bone dry. This is one reason I often mix in an organic component...it helps wick the water into drier areas.

I've had great success with DE and it is my primary substrate in most situations. But, like all other soils...learn how it works and treat accordingly

 

[yashu]

The firing of DE was new information to me. I guess I thought the same as you in that real DE being what amounts to fossilized silica would not need to be fired and if fired would have to be done at such a high temp to have any effect on the structure (think; glass), unless it was done as some sort of purifying process, to perhaps burn off undesirable products of the mining process… but I really don’t know.

I have been lucky in that I have not come across the poor quality 8822. I purchased a whole bunch all at once but have only one bag left from that lot after this potting season. I think I’ll pick up a test bag before buying another 20, just in case. Fortunately I have about a dozen different NAPA stores within an hour’s drive so if one doesn’t have the good stuff I can keep looking.

 

[TN_Jim]

As a followup: I went looking for some pictures I thought I had to backup my claims. I can't find the mushrooms growing in my live oaks, but I did find this

[Dingus] quercus gambelli #1

Yep. I think that's why the one I dug has made it so far. Lava and pumice, and twice-daily watering! I do need to be carefull here in spring and fall. Our spring this year has been cool and rainy so I've been trying to let it dry out when I can. Cool + damp = rot :( My biggest fear with...

www.bonsainut.com

Algee and mildew growing on 8822 with chunky coconut coir. That was one pot that I needed to rake because the surface was so choked water was puddling! A quick brush of the surface broke it up enough that it became fast draining again

What I do not understand is "firing". The DE I use is the NAPA 8822 that shows colors when wet: browns...not greys. And the material looks like tiny stones. I occasionally get 8822 that looks more like grey clay bits...similar to what I usually get with opti-sorb from AutoZone. The grey stuff is clearly clay and breaks down quickly. I do not belive this material to be DE but is calcified clay. True DE should look more like rock and I do not think should be fired or need to be fired...it's fossilized already.

NAPA has at least 2 distinct "grades" of 8822 that I have purchased from the same store For the intended purpose, they perform the same. For a soil/soil additive, they are very different!

The "good stuff" should change color when wet. The left is damp...the right is dry. Both piles were pulled out of the same pot so they are a bit "dirty" compared to fresh DE.

View attachment 424163

I the dropped a bit of water on part of the right pile for this picture

View attachment 424162

The other "grade" of DE I have received is much softer and stays a uniform grey when wet. I hate it and don't keep it around when I come across it. Unfortunately, I've gotten both types in identical looking NAPA 8822 bags from the same store. It does appear to be lot or shipment related so I've started buying a single bag to see what kind it us then buying more when it is the good stuff

Some other notes on DE:

* The small particle size has never been an issue for me. I don't bother sifting fir size. I do pour a crap ton of water through fresh material to drain out the dust! The dust is nasty: don't breath it! It is also messy...it will stain wood easily. I rinse over grass so the dust doesn't stain my deck.

* DE is porous. It needs a deep watering for it to hold moisture. Light watering can just pour straight through and be dry again quickly. Conversely, once it has fully absorbed all the water it can, it can remain too wet for most plants. Learn to "read the colors"

* DE doesn't wick moisture from place to place. Water evenly! Once it dries out, it's a bit hydrophobic. If a pot dries out too much...or the DE is fresh, watering will form water channels that the water will follow leaving some areas bone dry. This is one reason I often mix in an organic component...it helps wick the water into drier areas.

I've had great success with DE and it is my primary substrate in most situations. But, like all other soils...learn how it works and treat accordingly

@Moridin has assessed the color issue in another thread. I believe he stated that there are two mine sources -one has more iron or such in it giving the darker color. I have had a bad batch of the lighter where it broke down to mush and believe this was lower fired material and that issue has been resolved.

The two new bags I’ve sifted this winter are predominantly lighter, are rock solid, and appear to be a bit larger than the past couple of years as well. It may not look as desirable as the darker; though, aside from that no complaints on this recent batch.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

The first article was very specific. It concerns the use of DE solely against insect pests in the stored grain (see “dry”) environment and never even touches on mycological implications. That said, if I ever have a silo of corn or barley and I’m dealing with weevils DE will be a top consideration.
……..

While I confess I only spent 20 minutes to research DE there is a plethora of data available on the insecticidal and fungicidal properties of DE.. but of course nothing on these properties when used as a bonsai soil. That was the point…

The fact is people use what they what for bonsai media for a whole number of reasons and scientific fact is rarely ever in the forefront.

Mostly people say they use a particular type of media blend “because it works for my trees “. “Because… uses it”. “Because it does…”. “Because it’s what I’ve used forever…”. Etc. etc. and will fight to the very ends of the Earth to keep doing what they are doing vis a vis for a bonsai media type.

It’s not science, often I think it’s more of a blend of personal preference, pocketbook, what Billy uses, and just about everything else but…. and I respect that… it’s a hobby.

A couple years ago I did a survey on what type of media was used by BN folks for azaleas. There were at least 20 different blends or straight up medias. (Afterwards I found many more). The majority of the folks participating, about 60% used at least some kanuma in their soils, yet there many other medias, including…. you guessed it NAPA 8822!

And you know what? Each professed their media was the very best, that their azaleas flourished in “… media”, except for one new to bonsai guy who freely admitted he used what someone else told him to use and wasn’t sure how his azaleas were doing.

I’m cool with all this….after all a respected member of BN @leo in NE Illinois once successfully grew orchids on chunks of old tires and my wife grows orchids on styrofoam peanuts!

So please use the DE to your hearts content, but please don’t make assertions that …..works great as a healthy rhizospheric bonsai media, just because there’s no scientific studies to prove otherwise. Or worse make an assumption and ask others to prove it for you and shoot others down when they try to help. That’s not kosher.

Just use what you want for a media and have fun doing it! Then show us some ten year progressions so we can all be proud of how well you are doing.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[yashu]

While I confess I only spent 20 minutes to research DE there is a plethora of data available on the insecticidal and fungicidal properties of DE.. but of course nothing on these properties when used as a bonsai soil. That was the point…

The fact is people use what they what for bonsai media for a whole number of reasons and scientific fact is rarely ever in the forefront.

Mostly people say they use a particular type of media blend “because it works for my trees “. “Because… uses it”. “Because it does…”. “Because it’s what I’ve used forever…”. Etc. etc. and will fight to the very ends of the Earth to keep doing what they are doing vis a vis for a bonsai media type.

It’s not science, often I think it’s more of a blend of personal preference, pocketbook, what Billy uses, and just about everything else but…. and I respect that… it’s a hobby.

A couple years ago I did a survey on what type of media was used by BN folks for azaleas. There were at least 20 different blends or straight up medias. (Afterwards I found many more). The majority of the folks participating, about 60% used at least some kanuma in their soils, yet there many other medias, including…. you guessed it NAPA 8822!

And you know what? Each professed their media was the very best, that their azaleas flourished in “… media”, except for one new to bonsai guy who freely admitted he used what someone else told him to use and wasn’t sure how his azaleas were doing.

I’m cool with all this….after all a respected member of BN @leo in NE Illinois once successfully grew orchids on chunks of old tires and my wife grows orchids on styrofoam peanuts!

So please use the DE to your hearts content, but please don’t make assertions that …..works great as a healthy rhizospheric bonsai media, just because there’s no scientific studies to prove otherwise. Or worse make an assumption and ask others to prove it for you and shoot others down when they try to help. That’s not kosher.

Just use what you want for a media and have fun doing it! Then show us some ten year progressions so we can all be proud of how well you are doing.

Cheers
DSD sends

My apologies. I certainly wasn’t intending to say that “…” works great as a healthy rhyzospheric bonsai media. I was countering the assertion that it was unhealthy when there is no evidence to that end and that as many on this forum have discovered, it actually functions quite well. I personally try to back up my claims for or against anything with as accurate information information as I can scrape up and find it frustrating when others don’t take a more pragmatic approach rather than “my personal bonsai guru says this…”

I guess I’m not sure what I said that wasn’t kosher? Either way, I value this forum and the folks in it. It’s a great resource and I’d just like to do my part in contributing accurate information when I can.

 

[Mr GeaRbOx]

I think DSD has the right sentiment. We don't know enough to definitively say and swapping anecdote is not a way to end the debate. In the long run it's better to use what you have where you are and getting trees growing. When I lived in Vegas, DE was a good choice because I didn't want to invest a lot and other sources were scarce and or expensive. Now that I'm in the PNW I can get pumice so cheap it has completely changed my mixes.

 

[LittleDingus]

While I confess I only spent 20 minutes to research DE there is a plethora of data available on the insecticidal and fungicidal properties of DE.. but of course nothing on these properties when used as a bonsai soil. That was the point…

The fact is people use what they what for bonsai media for a whole number of reasons and scientific fact is rarely ever in the forefront.

Mostly people say they use a particular type of media blend “because it works for my trees “. “Because… uses it”. “Because it does…”. “Because it’s what I’ve used forever…”. Etc. etc. and will fight to the very ends of the Earth to keep doing what they are doing vis a vis for a bonsai media type.

It’s not science, often I think it’s more of a blend of personal preference, pocketbook, what Billy uses, and just about everything else but…. and I respect that… it’s a hobby.

A couple years ago I did a survey on what type of media was used by BN folks for azaleas. There were at least 20 different blends or straight up medias. (Afterwards I found many more). The majority of the folks participating, about 60% used at least some kanuma in their soils, yet there many other medias, including…. you guessed it NAPA 8822!

And you know what? Each professed their media was the very best, that their azaleas flourished in “… media”, except for one new to bonsai guy who freely admitted he used what someone else told him to use and wasn’t sure how his azaleas were doing.

I’m cool with all this….after all a respected member of BN @leo in NE Illinois once successfully grew orchids on chunks of old tires and my wife grows orchids on styrofoam peanuts!

So please use the DE to your hearts content, but please don’t make assertions that …..works great as a healthy rhizospheric bonsai media, just because there’s no scientific studies to prove otherwise. Or worse make an assumption and ask others to prove it for you and shoot others down when they try to help. That’s not kosher.

Just use what you want for a media and have fun doing it! Then show us some ten year progressions so we can all be proud of how well you are doing.

Cheers
DSD sends

I'm certainly not trying to push the use of DE on anyone. Just stating my experience because it is contrary to what was stated. I backed up what I could with photos of my specific circumstances.

I usually stay out of the "Great Soil Wars" because they are so stupid. The fact of the matter is, trees need nutrients, oxygen and water. All can be provided through a number of media. Which works best in any unique situation is as more a factor of the grower and the grower's habits than it is on the details of which rocks and dead things are mixed together.

I grew everything in miracle grow for years. Still have some succulents and a saguaro in it. Most would look at those trees and say they were growing in mud and they're going to die...except they haven't and history says they won't because I pay attention to what is going on and understand the situations. A couple of years ago I switched most things to 8822 because it neutralized a fungus gnat problem in my indoor growing conditions that I rarely used to get in my previous home. But, yeah, like @Leo in N E Illinois, I've grown orchids in all kinds of crazy stuff. Colored glass beads was one of my favorite for fleshy rooted species like phals. I've currently got some gel crystals that I want to plant some tree seeds in when I can find a decent clear "pot": I want to see if I can watch the roots of an oak or a redwood develop.

Anyway...my point is there is no "winner" to the "Great Soil Wars". There are only "optimal" mixes that match your own personal micro-environment and habits.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I hear you @LittleDingus ….Far be it for me to tell someone what to use as a media, especially considering the results of my survey! …and what I myself was using four years ago for all my bonsai.

Who knew that just about anything can be used to create finely refined, ramified azalea bonsai… or at least thats what folks say?

The only fly in the ointment in my position is I’ve been volunteering for the past three years at least weekly at the Pacific Bonsai Museum, repotting, trimming, wiring, lime sulfuring etc etc on finely ramified museum quality trees. … and I know what is used there to maintain these trees…. and what many of the professionals and hobbyists associated or remotely connected use on their trees in refinement. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not on that caliber myself, yet I do have eyes and ears.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Chinus]

Hi folks, I've been following this with interest because I've been testing Fastenal product OptiSorb #8925 which is advertised as (and I understood to be at the time I did the research on it) pure DE. I got a nasty surprise repotting some of my trees today and found mush all over... really bad mush mind you, enough that I'll likely throw away the few bags I have and placed an order for the NAPA product to pick up tomorrow. Not saying it's not DE, not saying I didn't get a bad batch, just saying stating it turned to putty. I'll try and compare the two products at some point and report back if I find anything interesting.

Thanks for all the good info!

 

[yashu]

Hi folks, I've been following this with interest because I've been testing Fastenal product OptiSorb #8925 which is advertised as (and I understood to be at the time I did the research on it) pure DE. I got a nasty surprise repotting some of my trees today and found mush all over... really bad mush mind you, enough that I'll likely throw away the few bags I have and placed an order for the NAPA product to pick up tomorrow. Not saying it's not DE, not saying I didn't get a bad batch, just saying stating it turned to putty. I'll try and compare the two products at some point and report back if I find anything interesting.

Thanks for all the good info!

You’ve come upon what appears to be the downfall of every single soil component…

…the bad batch.

I’ve had enough people tell me that what happened with my akadama breaking down in less than a season doesn’t happen that I’m left with the assumption that I too got the dreaded “bad batch”

 

[August44]

I got several bags of the Nampa product awhile back, screened out the fines (about 50%), and then fill up a small, solid container with some of what was left over and then filled the container with water and left it there for month. It did not break down or really even get soft. I might try that again and then freeze and thaw it.

 

[LittleDingus]

Hi folks, I've been following this with interest because I've been testing Fastenal product OptiSorb #8925 which is advertised as (and I understood to be at the time I did the research on it) pure DE. I got a nasty surprise repotting some of my trees today and found mush all over... really bad mush mind you, enough that I'll likely throw away the few bags I have and placed an order for the NAPA product to pick up tomorrow. Not saying it's not DE, not saying I didn't get a bad batch, just saying stating it turned to putty. I'll try and compare the two products at some point and report back if I find anything interesting.

Thanks for all the good info!

My experience with optisorb is the same. It turns to Mush in about a season. NAPA if been able to use for many seasons.

 

[David wv]

NAPA has at least 2 distinct "grades" of 8822 that I have purchased from the same store For the intended purpose, they perform the same. For a soil/soil additive, they are very different.
The other "grade" of DE I have received is much softer and stays a uniform grey when wet. I hate it and don't keep it around when I come across it. Unfortunately, I've gotten both types in identical looking NAPA 8822 bags from the same store. It does appear to be lot or shipment related so I've started buying a single bag to see what kind it us then buying more when it is the good stuff

[/QUOTE] I just purchased a bag of de from napa, same 8822 part number but it was definitely different than what I normally get. It was more tan in color than the normal white with the few odd darker pieces. I sifted the whole bag and only got about 1/4 of a 5 gal bucket, I normally get about 3/4 of a bucket after sifting. I was freaking out, thinking they changed the product. I hope I can get a good bag tomorrow. Have you realized this 2nd crappy grade is much smaller particles? In your opinion would you not use what little bit was left after sifting? Or does it hold up okay?

 

[Underdog]

I've had good luck w/NAPA and reuse it often. I've also started using crushed brick which is fired clay as well. Defiantly holds water and don't break down. The NAPA is just too small for some applications and this is my answer to Larger DE. I do have some from the batch sold here by a member and it's holding up well but no longer available. Prettier in the pots too. Pumice is hard to get in Ohio but I have a brick factory half hour away.

I use it in my patio seen in my avitar

 

[August44]

I've had good luck w/NAPA and reuse it often. I've also started using crushed brick which is fired clay as well. Defiantly holds water and don't break down. The NAPA is just too small for some applications and this is my answer to Larger DE. I do have some from the batch sold here by a member and it's holding up well but no longer available. Prettier in the pots too. Pumice is hard to get in Ohio but I have a brick factory half hour away.

I use it in my patio seen in my avitar

View attachment 428966

Interesting! How do you crush it and I will assume you then screen it? What is the mix you use with the brick if you don't mind. Thanks for posting.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

I use red bricks or roof tiles also and works amazing the only downside its the weight if you have to use it in big pots

 

[Underdog]

Interesting! How do you crush it and I will assume you then screen it? What is the mix you use with the brick if you don't mind. Thanks for posting.

I don't crush it. I buy if from the brick factory. They crush the defective bricks and sell. I use it in the patio.



Oh and yes I sift it to desired size. This is 1/8" and 1/4"

Oh and yes I sift it. This is 1/8 and 1/4 inch
And the weight is a bonus in many cases with plastic training pots and bushy trees setting around the pond. But a back breaker in the big pots for sure.