When to start balancing energy?

[The Warm Canuck]

I've got a bunch of Scotts in early development, with most of their trunks being thickened up with a sacrifice leader. I've been told to just let them grow to encourage back budding and just prune to stop the whirls. However, some of the sacrifice leaders are growing excessive amounts of candles and they look to me to be taking a lot of the trees energy from the lower branches.

So, Should I thin the tops? The multiple candles will start turning into branches next year, than I also worry that it will start shading the bottom branches.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

@leatherback Jelly, I watched your video on pine candles but I'm still a bit confused.

 

[leatherback]

I think it is important to realize that energy balancing is mostly a thing for developed crowns.
You are growing out, and all you are after is top growth, and holding back the lowest 1 or 2 branches.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

I think it is important to realize that energy balancing is mostly a thing for developed crowns.
You are growing out, and all you are after is top growth, and holding back the lowest 1 or 2 branches.

At some point I'm going to thin out the top, to allow light for the bottom branches, right? Isn't it better to cut some of the candles of now, instead of waiting until they become woody? I've found with my pines, that I only have so much pruning I can safely do, without killing the tree.

 

[bwaynef]

I think it was Adair that shared this image of sacrifice branches being used @ Telperion to grow fat lower trunks. These are likely jbp, but the principle applies.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Ya, I've seen that before, but as you can see he has pruned the sacrifice branch at certain point to encourage it to grow vertically, ensuring that it doesn't shade the lower branches. I guess I didn't frame my question well:

With sacrificial leaders, with a massive amount of candles, Isn't better to reduce the number of candles earlier in the season instead of allowing them to form into branches and pruning them later?

 

[Paradox]

Look at the telperion picture. It answers your question. Do those tops look like they have been pruned? Some of them have 5, 6, 7 branches up there. However the rest of the trunk down to where the future tree is has nothing so its not being shaded.

 

[James W.]

I think you do not want to redirect energy to those lower branches at this time, they should stay small and underdeveloped. Only remove what might be shading the lower branches so that your trees don't decide to abandon them completely. The more upper stuff you leave growing, the faster your trunks will fatten.

 

[bwaynef]

To answer your question, when developing a sacrifice leader, I think you'd choose the strongest and remove all the others. Let it grow. Keep an extra candle at the first node but continue developing the sacrifice. Pluck needles so it doesn't shade below. Eventually, you're going to want to reduce the sacrifice before the tree abandons all the lower growth. Cut back to that extra candle.

 

[PowerTap]

Two questions because I'm also getting trees into this phase of development.

1. Is there a recommended time in the year to remove the branches in the middle?
2. Is there a rule of thumb for how much space to leave empty of branches?

Thanks

 

[bwaynef]

Two questions because I'm also getting trees into this phase of development.

1. Is there a recommended time in the year to remove the branches in the middle?
2. Is there a rule of thumb for how much space to leave empty of branches?

Thanks

1. Leave the one in the middle and remove the ones on the outside. Doing it as the candles develop means more strength to the candle you want to get strong.
2. Leave enough space so that as the sun falls on the tree, all the good bits get plenty of sun. Beyond that, its done when the trunk below the sacrifice is as thick as you want it ...or the branches below the sacrifice are weakening too much.

 

[Dav4]

If this was a JBP in my back yard, I'd let all the candles at the top of the sacrifice branch grow/mature for the summer but reduce to the strongest/central candle this fall. I'd also pull all of last year's needles from the sacrifice branch once the new needles have pushed and hardened off. If it was a single flush pine in my back yard, like a Scots or JWP, I'd probably do the same and see what happens.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

1. Leave the one in the middle and remove the ones on the outside. Doing it as the candles develop means more strength to the candle you want to get strong.
2. Leave enough space so that as the sun falls on the tree, all the good bits get plenty of sun. Beyond that, its done when the trunk below the sacrifice is as thick as you want it ...or the branches below the sacrifice are weakening too much.

If this was a JBP in my back yard, I'd let all the candles at the top of the sacrifice branch grow/mature for the summer but reduce to the strongest/central candle this fall. I'd also pull all of last year's needles from the sacrifice branch once the new needles have pushed and hardened off. If it was a single flush pine in my back yard, like a Scots or JWP, I'd probably do the same and see what happens.

i'm going to try both ways. I'll remove all of them right now on one tree, and do another tree in early fall.

 

[jonf]

i'm going to try both ways. I'll remove all of them right now on one tree, and do another tree in early fall.

that'll be a good experiment, I've seen it done both ways by the pros: one of the top growers in Japan cuts off all the candles except the center candle as they are extending in spring, and as you can see in the telperion picture they let all candles develop during the year, and cut the side branches off later (presumably in winter).

To address your question, in your pictures the bottom candles/branches don't look weak to the point of concern. Spring candle thinning will help if the bottom is weak and needs energy, but allowing all of them to grow out will help it thicken faster. Looking at these pictures, I'd throw in another vote for waiting 'till winter, for future reference

 

[Shibui]

Growth = thickening. All those candles will produce needles this summer and all those needles provide food for the trunk which = thickening. Pruning now will reduce the amount of food and therefore thickening this summer. Leave growth unless it is interfering with what's happening below. If any of those candles open up and shade the lower branches too much you can cut any time. Pruning does not need to be only spring and fall.
Just watch that strong upper leaders do not cause lower branches to suffer. You really need some lower branches for the bonsai. If low branches look poor sacrifice the sacrifice. You can always grow another when the branches you need are strong again.

 

[Potawatomi13]

If not possessed of unlimited growing space (as yours truly) this happens as soon as lower branches show ANY sign of weakening/being shaded out. Begin balancing as soon as either is apparent. If not sooner.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

What are the beginning signs of lower branch weakening?

 

[Glaucus]

I found it easy to achieve good taper while growing a bunch if Scot's pines. The tricky thing for me was to keep some branches very close in with the trunk with plenty of strong buds for when the sacrificial branches would be gone.
Mine turned out too long and leggy to use useful as a good bonsai.
I guess for every branch on your tree, you have to decide very early on if it is a sacrificial branch or not.
Or , you can't have more than 2 sacrificial branches on the same tree, unless it is quite big.
The branches that are not sacrificial are going to get weaker. So one would try to avoid to prune them. Which makes them long, weak and leggy.
Maybe another mistake I made was trying to keep too many branches.

Additionally, you do have to go in and prune for backbudding at some point, or else you will only have branches at two or three spots, where the growth nodes of each season are.

There is this youtube channel of a nursery doing only pine bonsai:

They have some videos similar to this one. Turn on subs. It seems he likes to use only one sacrificial leader at a time, naturally causing it to become the apex (and usually it originally was not).
And he is able to keep everything else very tight to the trunk and completely unshaded. And I guess that once it is time to remove the sacrificial branch, he just grows a new one higher up the trunk.

He doesn't use Scot's pine. I can show pictures of what I tried and how it did or did not work. I was planning to do a thread on my 10 year growing of Scot's pine at some point during summer. I plan to prune one back hard late June. So maybe then I will do a thread on it.

 

[River's Edge]

I've got a bunch of Scotts in early development, with most of their trunks being thickened up with a sacrifice leader. I've been told to just let them grow to encourage back budding and just prune to stop the whirls. However, some of the sacrifice leaders are growing excessive amounts of candles and they look to me to be taking a lot of the trees energy from the lower branches.

So, Should I thin the tops? The multiple candles will start turning into branches next year, than I also worry that it will start shading the bottom branches.

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You are getting a wide array of confusing responses to a very simple question.
When developing pines it is important to balance energy according to the developmental goals at each stage.
Basically one needs to ensure that you keep your priorities straight and prune in accordance with those priorities.
For the pictures you have shown my response is as follows.
1.Apical leaders and sacrifice branches are intended to primarily thicken sections quickly and be removed, not part of the final design. Thickening occurs best with extension of apical growth rather than many side shoots. Additionally the apical extension is less likely to shade out lower and interior growth. Therefore reduce apical leaders and sacrifice branches to a main candle and one safety side shoot. I do this typically at the beginning of the growing season to get the most benefit from extension.
2. It is important at all stages to maintain lower branching health and vigour by balancing energy each year in the developmental process. Particularily within the first ten years. The reasoning being that this is the best time for back budding to occur. Thus allowing one to develop density and design branching as opposed to simply the coarse branching for thickening the trunk and initial stages of primary branching.
3. If you do not begin to strengthen the lower branching and develop more foliage below it will be very difficult to expect successful development without a much more extended period of development. And it becomes more difficult as the tree gets older, thus increasing the likelihood of grafting being required.
4. Energy balancing during basic early development involves pruning each individual part of the pine in accordance with its individual stage. By this I mean, constant attention to the amount of foliage, thickening rate and presence of developing buds. I prefer early spring for this activity, but it can be done in the fall as well. My preference is on maintaining the health and vigour throughout the winter and then pruning and or needle reduction just prior to the growing season.

I have included a couple of pictures to try and illustrate the comments above.

 

[River's Edge]

I've got a bunch of Scotts in early development, with most of their trunks being thickened up with a sacrifice leader. I've been told to just let them grow to encourage back budding and just prune to stop the whirls. However, some of the sacrifice leaders are growing excessive amounts of candles and they look to me to be taking a lot of the trees energy from the lower branches.

So, Should I thin the tops? The multiple candles will start turning into branches next year, than I also worry that it will start shading the bottom branches.

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Short answer.
1.Remove the side shoots except one and keep only one side shoot and the central apical candle on the end of each sacrifice branch and the apical sacrifice leader for the trunk thickening. Remove needles if shading lower portions needed for design. ( all elements that will not be part of the final design)
You can do that now!
2. For branches being kept for part of the design keep enough foliage for vigour and health at all times. If the branch needs thickening still keep the central and side shoots until you have enough thickness and interior foliage to cut back. Make sure the foliage closer in is strong enough to continue to flourish before cutting back. The response is stronger if one waits for more growth before cutting back. Do not worry at all about needle length during this stage of development.
Hope the comments help. Feel free to shoot me a specific picture and I will mark it up the way I would deal with it at this point in time.
best of luck. Once you are past this stage over the next four or five years you will be on to decandling and shorter needles such as pictured below. One of my JBP,s that is a little further along in development.