When to hard prune a Juniper for ramification

[Ozz80]

I have been thinking about how to style this Juniperus Communis "gold", but I am unable to find a solution. So, my initial thoughts are;

- Since the foliage is somehow coarse and droopy, I guess a relatively taller tree will be better than a small compact one.
- The trunk base at the bottom is about 2 inches ( 5cm ). So, height of the tree can be 16 inches ( 40 cm) perhaps
- I do not want it to be a cascade (the second tree at the back of the pot will be )
- I need to choose one of the trident shaped branches as the main trunk line and since the remaining two will be too thick compared to the trunk, those branches will have to be removed.
- As a trunk candidate, best movement appears to be on the one I've drawn with a yellow line. So, branches marked with red will be removed.
- Even after that, I will need backbudding or grafting to create primary branches.
- What I observe about Junipers is that they tend to shoot at branch shoulders. So maybe, without removing the big branches initially, only reducing upper foliage drastically will be sufficient so that more light comes inside. If those shoots come, I can remove those branches gradually later.
- If no shoots come, then I will have to try grafting.

So my questions are;

- Is there anything wrong with my line of thought? Can you suggest any alternative solutions for the design? ( I have uploaded the back view of the tree as well, which I do not think to be a good front though)
- When will be the best time for hard pruning a juniper to achieve backbudding?

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Might effect the conversation, but I think that's a Chinensis, not Communis.
At least not a Communis that I'm familiar with

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Also, Its very difficult to train two trees properly in the same pot, unless they are going to be one composition (displayed together)
Separate them ASAP before making any major design decisions.

Roots can get tangled, branches shaded out, thieving nutrients, etc. problems abound.

 

[Ozz80]

Might effect the conversation, but I think that's a Chinensis, not Communis.
At least not a Communis that I'm familiar with

My bad, you are correct!

Also, Its very difficult to train two trees properly in the same pot, unless they are going to be one composition (displayed together)
Separate them ASAP before making any major design decisions.

Of course! I bought them a month ago from a nursery, which was a late time for repotting. I will seperate and repot them next spring. But I just think that both look pretty healthy, both had lots of new growth, so maybe I can do some major pruning this season?

 

[e~b]

Not to say it is impossible, but the margin for error is pretty small if you try to do major pruning now and then repot in the spring. You will need to get pretty invasive to separate the two trees, so leaving more foliage would be my choice. Everything else you have envisioned can come after the repot/separation.

Just to play devil's advocate, is it even worth trying to separate the two? I like your proposed trunkline, maybe it is worth going "all in" on that tree.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

How certain are you that this is 2 trees and not 1 tree buried deep?

 

[Ozz80]

How certain are you that this is 2 trees and not 1 tree buried deep?

Thanks for your reply. Maybe not seen clearly due to the angle of the photo, but actually two trees are distantly located and I dug till the root base. So I am sure that they are 2 trees disconnected.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

As for backbudding, that's not a given in pfitzer/media junipers like the old gold. The best option is grafting, because even Bjorn Bjorholm seems to find them difficult specimens to style and keep; their foliage reverts very easily and they're difficult to get under control. The coarse and floppy foliage is difficult to keep in place and tends to droop a lot. I'm grafting mine with chinensis and blaauw.
That takes a few tries and a few years, but in the end it will pay back the effort by not having to deal with the foliage that doesn't like to be dealt with.

Media junipers are cheap around here, and often planted as ornamental garden plants. For junipers, they grow fast and they're tough as nails. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet they're the toughest variety of juniper one can own. I have probably around 8 of them. They don't seem to be fond of itoigawa when grafting, I don't know why that is but I've had 16 out of 16 grafts fail, whereas my regular scion-graft failure rate is around 1 in 5.

 

[Ozz80]

Not to say it is impossible, but the margin for error is pretty small if you try to do major pruning now and then repot in the spring. You will need to get pretty invasive to separate the two trees, so leaving more foliage would be my choice. Everything else you have envisioned can come after the repot/separation.

Just to play devil's advocate, is it even worth trying to separate the two? I like your proposed trunkline, maybe it is worth going "all in" on that tree.

As for backbudding, that's not a given in pfitzer/media junipers like the old gold. The best option is grafting, because even Bjorn Bjorholm seems to find them difficult specimens to style and keep; their foliage reverts very easily and they're difficult to get under control. The coarse and floppy foliage is difficult to keep in place and tends to droop a lot. I'm grafting mine with chinensis and blaauw.
That takes a few tries and a few years, but in the end it will pay back the effort by not having to deal with the foliage that doesn't like to be dealt with.

Media junipers are cheap around here, and often planted as ornamental garden plants. For junipers, they grow fast and they're tough as nails. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet they're the toughest variety of juniper one can own. I have probably around 8 of them. They don't seem to be fond of itoigawa when grafting, I don't know why that is but I've had 16 out of 16 grafts fail, whereas my regular scion-graft failure rate is around 1 in 5.

Thank you for your very good suggestions. I will not hurry as you suggested, first seperate then will do the styling

Do you think that I can graft with procumbens nana?

 

[WinstonWolfe]

How certain are you that this is 2 trees and not 1 tree buried deep?

One buried deep would be ideal. You may have one really nice tree buried in there.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have never grafted needle foliage junipers with any luck; they poke through the parafilm tape that locks the moisture in. Maybe if you bag them it might work, but the bags in my yard ended up catching a lot of wind and were too interesting for the birds to use as nesting material.
I'm on an unlucky streak with itoigawa, so it might just work in anyone else's hands. Just not mine.

Since my plants are on the larger side, I decided to stick with non-cultivar chinensis, and that seems to work just fine.

 

[Ozz80]

One buried deep would be ideal. You may have one really nice tree buried in there.

I wish that was the case. But I am afraid no. That was the first thing I checked when I purchased the trees. Two different rootballs. Two different trees.

 

[Ozz80]

I have never grafted needle foliage junipers with any luck; they poke through the parafilm tape that locks the moisture in. Maybe if you bag them it might work, but the bags in my yard ended up catching a lot of wind and were too interesting for the birds to use as nesting material.
I'm on an unlucky streak with itoigawa, so it might just work in anyone else's hands. Just not mine.

Since my plants are on the larger side, I decided to stick with non-cultivar chinensis, and that seems to work just fine.

Thanks for your help. I will first try procumbens with bags. If no success, I will go with non cultivar chinensis then.

 

[Ruddigger]

I think you have a misunderstanding of the way junipers need to be worked. You don't hard cut to build ramification. You wire and style the branching to build the scaffolding for your secondaries, the ramification happens by itself. Make good sustainable structure and the tree will do the work.

 

[Ozz80]

.

 

[Attmos]

As for backbudding, that's not a given in pfitzer/media junipers like the old gold. The best option is grafting, because even Bjorn Bjorholm seems to find them difficult specimens to style and keep; their foliage reverts very easily and they're difficult to get under control. The coarse and floppy foliage is difficult to keep in place and tends to droop a lot. I'm grafting mine with chinensis and blaauw.
That takes a few tries and a few years, but in the end it will pay back the effort by not having to deal with the foliage that doesn't like to be dealt with.

Media junipers are cheap around here, and often planted as ornamental garden plants. For junipers, they grow fast and they're tough as nails. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet they're the toughest variety of juniper one can own. I have probably around 8 of them. They don't seem to be fond of itoigawa when grafting, I don't know why that is but I've had 16 out of 16 grafts fail, whereas my regular scion-graft failure rate is around 1 in 5.

The ability to back-bud can be specific to cultivars of the same tree? ...wow

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

Thank you for your very good suggestions. I will not hurry as you suggested, first seperate then will do the styling

Do you think that I can graft with procumbens nana?

I would recommend against grafting with nana foliage. Pretty much all the foliage a nana ever grows is juvenile type foliage and would look extremely off on a larger plant. The most popular grafting material around for junipers is a cultivar of juniperus chinensis called "kishu", which is desired due to compact, luscious, deep green scale foliage.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The ability to back-bud can be specific to cultivars of the same tree? ...wow

Mint julep and other media/pfitzers tend to behave the same. It's not the specific cultivar but the main hybrid cross that is hesitant to bud back. Compared to chinensis or sabina, the two mother species, they're not budding as easy.

 

[Shibui]

One buried deep would be ideal. You may have one really nice tree buried in there.

If trunks have been buried for more than a few months they will usually have new roots all along the trunks - giving the impression of separate trees in 1 pot so even though the OP has confirmed roots on both trunks, it may still eb a single tree, joined way down.
Extra roots can always be cut off BUT, if the extra roots have been there for more than a few months the trunk tends to thicken above the roots, meaning inverse taper in the trunk when those upper roots are removed.
Experience shows it is usually better to separate the trunks rather than remove the extra roots to go for twin trunk. Usually there's plenty of new roots so just chop the trunk to leave a radial root system on each trunk. They seem to manage on surprisingly few roots if that's done in Spring.

As a trunk candidate, best movement appears to be on the one I've drawn with a yellow line. So, branches marked with red will be removed.

We can't see the roots which may influence what trunk angles might be possible. If the roots support the current trunk angle your pick appears to be a reasonable choice.
J. chinensis usually buds from branch joints so pruning and patience may give you the new shoots you want for the design but it will take a few years for new shoots to mature enough to be branches.
Don't be in too much of a hurry to remove thick branches. Consider converting redundant branches into dead wood features. If you don't like the look after it's much easier to remove them than to add dead wood later.
No scale in any of the photos but I suspect most of those branches are a bit low for branching on a bonsai juniper. Branches can easily be lowered or use 'drop branch' to fill empty space if required but don't be too intent on filling all spaces. Bonsai design relies as much on space as it does on foliage. Space can really elevate a design from mundane and uninteresting to WOW!

 

[Ozz80]

If trunks have been buried for more than a few months they will usually have new roots all along the trunks - giving the impression of separate trees in 1 pot so even though the OP has confirmed roots on both trunks, it may still eb a single tree, joined way down.
Extra roots can always be cut off BUT, if the extra roots have been there for more than a few months the trunk tends to thicken above the roots, meaning inverse taper in the trunk when those upper roots are removed.
Experience shows it is usually better to separate the trunks rather than remove the extra roots to go for twin trunk. Usually there's plenty of new roots so just chop the trunk to leave a radial root system on each trunk. They seem to manage on surprisingly few roots if that's done in Spring.

We can't see the roots which may influence what trunk angles might be possible. If the roots support the current trunk angle your pick appears to be a reasonable choice.
J. chinensis usually buds from branch joints so pruning and patience may give you the new shoots you want for the design but it will take a few years for new shoots to mature enough to be branches.
Don't be in too much of a hurry to remove thick branches. Consider converting redundant branches into dead wood features. If you don't like the look after it's much easier to remove them than to add dead wood later.
No scale in any of the photos but I suspect most of those branches are a bit low for branching on a bonsai juniper. Branches can easily be lowered or use 'drop branch' to fill empty space if required but don't be too intent on filling all spaces. Bonsai design relies as much on space as it does on foliage. Space can really elevate a design from mundane and uninteresting to WOW!

Thanks for your reply! What I had in mind was reducing length of the top branches in August (without removing all the foliage to prevent branches dying) so that more light comes in. But I will look into the possibility of finding a Kishu first, though Shimpaku varieties are hard to find here. If I can find that variety until that time, I will try grafting as @Wires_Guy_wires suggested.

Can Juniperus Sabina be a good candidate for grafting as well?

Finally, I would like to ask if there are bonsai styles that look less bad with floppy / coarse foliage? (Maybe windswept or cascade?)