When should inexperienced bonsai growers shut up and let the experts talk?

[rockm]

If they left behind viewable content and text, they're still valuable members of the forum. Just takes a bit of digging to find what you need most of the time. People want information quick and fast now, nobody has the time to sift through countless posts, I didnt mind doing that when I first got in the hobby, was a lurker here for about 3 years before even posting.

^^^^THIS

What you are about to ask, has 97 percent of the time, been asked before. Do several searches on key terms you're interested in "trunk chop" "reduction" etc. Read what comes up. Also pay attention to who posts photos and the quality of trees in those photos. That says a lot about the advice they're giving.

The info here is vast and deep, well beyond anything else I've run across on the web, with input from some of the people who are writing books and running bonsai businesses. Pay attention to what's already here (even though it's tempting to just post what you want to know).

I'm currently reminded of all of this as I sift through saltwater reef aquarium boards. I'm a beginner, or at least out of the loop on those sites, there, so I'm researching and reading everything.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Just in the time that I have been here, it seems like more and more of the experienced people/experts have left the forum or only visit sporadically. Even so, I am SO thankful for all of the advice and information that I have received here. I am also thankful for those more learned individuals that have stayed to guide us less experienced. I try and only comment on things I have experienced and what has worked or not worked for me.

They don't know it, but I consider a couple of bonsainuts to be my sensei. They have helped me, as well as many others, quite a bit. I am also very grateful!

Also, many of my trees would be dead and I may have lost interest if it weren't for bonsainut.com. This is a great place to learn, document, and share.

 

[Wood]

Do several searches on key terms you're interested in "trunk chop" "reduction" etc. Read what comes up

One tip I've found is to use Google or DuckDuckGo instead of the forum's search. site:bonsainut.com "trunk chop" beech can give very different results. Search engines can value proximity or repetition of phrases more than the forum's search feature can. Not a criticism of the forum's search, just a different helpful tool

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

All I know is…I know how to water a tree better today than I did yesterday.

 

[snowman04]

Carol,
Most experts are probably too old for the computer or have move to the other side. This is a hobby for old farts you know.

I was around when they created it and I'm still using it!

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

I use the search function way more than I post. "There's gold in dem searches". I do try and help users with pest questions because that's what I know. An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes which can be made, and learned from them.

 

[Tbrshou]

Never shut up newbie or not, it's the essence of conversion. Alot of people just love to hear/see themselves talk. If your asking a question then I would expect the person asking the question to stop talking in order to hear the answer. I tend to stay away from people with that shut up I know more than you attitude. I honestly never understood the whole concept of the experts getting on a forum or in a teaching environment just to belittle the neophytes to me it just screams either poor upbringing or you were just bullied too much in life. Just my newbie $.02

 

[nuttiest]

do you have any suggestions for a rule of thumb to ascertain when it's time to shut up and wait for an expert to chime in?

so not qualified to answer this...

 

[pandacular]

One tip I've found is to use Google or DuckDuckGo instead of the forum's search. site:bonsainut.com "trunk chop" beech can give very different results. Search engines can value proximity or repetition of phrases more than the forum's search feature can. Not a criticism of the forum's search, just a different helpful tool

I knew this was going to be better, but I wasn't expecting it to be as good as it is.

 

[Paradox]

I don't think people should shut up but I do think there are times when people should listen more and speak less. I think that can apply to anyone here depending on the topic. None of us knows everything there is to know about bonsai and there is always something to learn.

I've noticed that some highly experienced and knowledgeable people don't seem to post here as much or at all any more in some cases.

Mach5 is one. He still posts but not as much but I think it's because he is a very busy guy and has risen in stature with the bonsai community due to his own efforts and deservedly so.

Brian Van Fleet is still around and someone with trees to back up what he says.
I've learned a lot from his experience.

I've noticed Adair seems to be gone which is a shame. He is another one with the trees to back up his knowledge and experience. He is passionate about bonsai and teaching others. Unfortunately he has been attacked by a few because of his strict adherence to a certain way of doing things and the fact he is not afraid to say it which sometimes comes off as "high and mighty". He is not that at all but the man has trees to back up what he says. I've learned a lot from him too and I miss that he doesn't post here any more. I guess he just got tired of being attacked and I can't blame him.

Smoke is another one that is gone too and also controversial in his "tough love" approach and not afraid to challenge a new person's thought process with the aim of teaching. He is another that has been bashed by others because he isn't afraid to tell it as he sees it. I've been subjected to his teaching methods myself when I was new. I was also taken aback by it at the time but now I see it differently. Now I find myself sounding more like him and Adair and Brian at times when I give advice....lol

The thing often said here is look at the trees those giving advice have. If they have healthy trees that are highly developed and advanced bonsai, that person is worth listening to. Even those who have trees that are developing in the right direction but not quite there yet should have good advice to give. People with sickly trees or trees that are all sticks in pots, might want to be a little more cautious about some of the things they say.

Critical thinking when analyzing any advice given will do you well

 

[pandacular]

If they left behind viewable content and text, they're still valuable members of the forum. Just takes a bit of digging to find what you need most of the time.

I would love another thread that compiled a list of some of these folks, particularly if people had some info about what made these "lost members" of the forum special. There's a few well known ones, and I've done searches specifically for posts specifically by those three guys you mentioned above and dug up great stuff, usually about things that I know they're good at. I'm building a list of others.

I recently read an epic old thread that was a bit of a beef between two old timers, and that was fun and revealing as well.

 

[Shibui]

Do any examples come to mind?

Trimming to develop ramification: Looks great for a few years then realize that all the ramification has overthickened the branches and need to start over.
Developing branches quickly then finally realizing the straight sections with little taper don't look good on the twisted trunk. Chop and start over.
Not removing redundant shoots on JM and, after a few years finding they have caused inverse taper in the trunk and branches.
Trimming smaller trees around the edges of a group more than the taller central trees in an effort to thicken the taller trees and retard the outer ones. Eventually discover the extra shoots and more branches on the trimmed, smaller trees and extra root run near the outside of the group has cause those trees to thicken way more than anticipated.
Not root trimming often enough because others say it may harm the tree - leads to root congestion. The trees are dying in spring and early summer because the pots can no longer hold enough water.
Leaving roots long at first transplant when there's only the stump to support because others say shortening them might kill or slow the tree. Discover years later that the roots won't fit in a bonsai pot and have to shorten them way back but now the tree has established, well ramified branches to support without roots.

That's only a few. Lots more......

 

[leatherback]

All of that is to ask, do you have any suggestions for a rule of thumb to ascertain when it's time to shut up and wait for an expert to chime in?

I doubt there is such a rule of thumb. I even doubt it is needed.

But..

I DO feel a little concerned every once in a while when people just start parroting their favorite website of video channel without having any way to assess whether "I saw this video" or "I read on this website" applies in the specific situation. Particularly when such a post comes in when already good solid information has been given based on someones clear first-hand experience / expertise.

 

[leatherback]

A lot of posts go unanswered, nobody likes that.

Never thought that was the case..

the unanswered threads page

Did not know that existed

if a beginner question goes unanswered for a few hours

Not sure whether I am getting old and this is a generational thing. But a few hours does not seem like a long time. Particularly knowing that.. you know.. people sleep. And.. Internet is international. Then again, I get annoyed when people after 8 hours start boosting their post if no answer comes in, and when people create a new thread for every new question if it deals with the same tree

 

[RJG2]

and when people create a new thread for every new question if it deals with the same tree

I've noticed this more recently. I think it's partly due to people not understanding forum structure. Newer social media dissuades updating older content, it's not promoted for new views - and encourages new posts instead.

 

[Kievnstavick]

Spoiler: Spoiler used to hide long text

I don't think people should shut up but I do think there are times when people should listen more and speak less. I think that can apply to anyone here depending on the topic. None of us knows everything there is to know about bonsai and there is always something to learn.

I've noticed that some highly experienced and knowledgeable people don't seem to post here as much or at all any more in some cases.

Mach5 is one. He still posts but not as much but I think it's because he is a very busy guy and has risen in stature with the bonsai community due to his own efforts and deservedly so.

Brian Van Fleet is still around and someone with trees to back up what he says.
I've learned a lot from his experience.

I've noticed Adair seems to be gone which is a shame. He is another one with the trees to back up his knowledge and experience. He is passionate about bonsai and teaching others. Unfortunately he has been attacked by a few because of his strict adherence to a certain way of doing things and the fact he is not afraid to say it which sometimes comes off as "high and mighty". He is not that at all but the man has trees to back up what he says. I've learned a lot from him too and I miss that he doesn't post here any more. I guess he just got tired of being attacked and I can't blame him.

Smoke is another one that is gone too and also controversial in his "tough love" approach and not afraid to challenge a new person's thought process with the aim of teaching. He is another that has been bashed by others because he isn't afraid to tell it as he sees it. I've been subjected to his teaching methods myself when I was new. I was also taken aback by it at the time but now I see it differently. Now I find myself sounding more like him and Adair and Brian at times when I give advice....lol

The thing often said here is look at the trees those giving advice have. If they have healthy trees that are highly developed and advanced bonsai, that person is worth listening to. Even those who have trees that are developing in the right direction but not quite there yet should have good advice to give. People with sickly trees or trees that are all sticks in pots, might want to be a little more cautious about some of the things they say.

Critical thinking when analyzing any advice given will do you well

I find it interesting that I recognize all of these users despite being relatively new to the site. I guess it says something about them when they are still recognizable and impressionable with their older posts.

I have learned over time that if someone posts a response that seems a little harsh, to take a moment and figure out if they intended to 'sound' that way. Sometimes it is just the way that person talks. Different cultures and countries speak differently even if the language used is the same. Thus the sound/intention of a statement could be read wrong.

I think that lesson is of vital importance when communicating online and through text.

 

[MSU JBoots]

I've been doing bonsai seriously since just prior to COVID, so I consider myself more or less one of the pandemic-era newcomers to the practice. That means I have a few years of experience, which is something, but it's certainly not a lot of experience, especially considering the long timespan it takes to develop and refine a tree.

This website has been a tremendous resource, and I enjoy participating in discussion. I like to help contribute here as a resource myself, at least to the extent I'm able to answer all the basic questions that brand new members tend to ask.

That said, I'm also wary of offering bad advice because of my relative lack of experience. To avoid spreading misinformation, I try to post only information of which I have first-hand, hands-on experience. To the extent that I know things from books and other hearsay sources, I try to avoid commenting, and when I do, I try to make it clear that it's second-hand information.

Nonetheless, even to the extent that I have first-hand experience with certain things, it's possible to be mistaken about what I've seen.

All of that is to ask, do you have any suggestions for a rule of thumb to ascertain when it's time to shut up and wait for an expert to chime in?

I’m basically on year two of my bonsai journey. I tend to only give advice I’m very certain of and to people who are clearly more novice than myself which is quite rare. I too don’t want to steer them wrong. As I grow more knowledgeable I will happily give advice more readily.

 

[MSU JBoots]

It's good to get a response back, even if the response comes from someone with not much more experience than the poster. At the very least it keeps the thread alive till maybe someone with more knowledge may weigh in. A lot of posts go unanswered, nobody likes that.

This is true. I always appreciate a post. Early on I would frequently looked at the persons account. Check out when they joined and how many posts they had. Now I know most people that post often and have seen their work so I generally know if they are beginner, novice, expert or anywhere in between.

 

[Lorax7]

Smoke is another one that is gone too and also controversial in his "tough love" approach and not afraid to challenge a new person's thought process with the aim of teaching. He is another that has been bashed by others because he isn't afraid to tell it as he sees it. I've been subjected to his teaching methods myself when I was new. I was also taken aback by it at the time but now I see it differently. Now I find myself sounding more like him and Adair and Brian at times when I give advice....lol

I can't recall a time when Smoke ever received a bashing that he didn't go out of his way to earn. I mean, it says a lot when a guy creates multiple accounts on the forum as a way to evade people's ignore lists because so many people have blocked him.

I don't think you or Adair or Brian sound anything like him when giving advice and I mean that in the most complementary way possible.

 

[Glaucus]

I think they meant people like Walter Pall leaving. Not people like Smoke and Brian van Fleet staying.
I don't mean to discredit their work or their helpfulness and kindness. But when debating why some people left, maybe we should talk about the real thing. And btw that happened 10 years or more years ago. Good thing I don't remember all the drama and ego's that went around ever since this place started. And not all drama was about bonsai.

That said, this place is somehow the most active bonsai forum around. So while this place did have it's drama, somehow it beat out on all the other places to discuss bonsai.