What's your opinion?

[delta6]

I've been seeing a lot of grafted kishu on a large bonsai tree. I'm wondering why people uses it instead of itoigawa for example. Any thoughts? Apart from personal taste and the fact that kishu's thick and dense foliage is proportional to the tree's height (say 40 inches in height), what are the other reasons why people choose it more than itoigawa? Just want to know if there are any other reasons that I don't know about coz I saw a post a while back about a large tree with itoigawa foliage and it also looks good. But nowadays, it seems like kishu is the way to go. I'm limiting this discussion between kishu and itoigawa. I know some uses shimpaku as well. I'm trying to focus on these two coz I like both of them. Thanks in advance!

* Happy New Year everyone!

 

[bwaynef]

I don't have enough experience with itoigawa yet, but I've heard that kishu handles heat better than itoigawa.

 

[delta6]

I see. I have both but I don't see any difference yet and our heat goes up to 115 in SoCal. As far as the cold, I think Kishu is more hardy on paper but can't really test it coz our winter is only around 20s to 30s.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I find kishu a more reliable grower too. Itoigawa grows whenever it wants, kishu just grows whenever it can.
I like the darker green over the light as well.

But availability and ease of propagation are probably also factors.

 

[MaciekA]

I enjoy the aesthetics of both and find that the thinning process for fronds is about equally muscle-memory-learnable, however, I prefer the plump bluish appearance of kishu. I enjoy conifers that lean "plump and blue" generally, outside of juniper as well.

I have propagated a large number of cuttings of both itoigawa and kishu over the last few years in a space-constrained but sort of helplessly hot/bright/breezy space, so I quickly ran into what @bwaynef mentioned, that kishu cuttings seem to thrive in extreme heat / brightness somewhat better than itoigawa. During the 2021 PNW heat dome event (a rare sustained 116F for this area), I saw slightly more attrition in itoigawa than kishu.

My professional teachers lean towards itoigawa, as far as I can tell mostly for the fineness of the foliage in refined pads.

 

[delta6]

That makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

At least in my local part of the UK I find a lot of the older junipers are kishu, where the relatively newer are ito

Not sure if this is just my local scene, common in the rest of the UK or common elsewhere in the world

Just an observation I made last year when comparing kishu/ito

 

[delta6]

Interesting. I wonder if it is a generational preference over there. I used to live in Kingston (Surrey) back in 2007. Really nice place. I enjoyed Weymouth and Leeds as well. London's far too busy when I worked there.

 

[River's Edge]

I've been seeing a lot of grafted kishu on a large bonsai tree. I'm wondering why people uses it instead of itoigawa for example. Any thoughts? Apart from personal taste and the fact that kishu's thick and dense foliage is proportional to the tree's height (say 40 inches in height), what are the other reasons why people choose it more than itoigawa? Just want to know if there are any other reasons that I don't know about coz I saw a post a while back about a large tree with itoigawa foliage and it also looks good. But nowadays, it seems like kishu is the way to go. I'm limiting this discussion between kishu and itoigawa. I know some uses shimpaku as well. I'm trying to focus on these two coz I like both of them. Thanks in advance!

* Happy New Year everyone!

One of the key reasons is the way Kishu responds to approach grafting. It has less of a tendency to fail later on by pushing out of the grafted site. Itoigawa tends to grow out often and fail or ruin the appearance. This is not the same concern with scion grafting. So long term viability of the " change of clothes" is a key factor.
Kishu also has a more compact growth which is suitable for smaller designs, even though the foliage is a bit thicker it does not elongate the same. The thicker, denser foliage is not necessarily only suited to larger designs, it can be very effective with Shohin when managed properly.

 

[BrianBay9]

I'm told kishu is more prone to spider mites in our area than itoigawa. I just got some so I guess I'll find out.

 

[TomP]

I find that kishu is less likely to revert to juvenile foliage and I like the color slightly better but I know many people like Ito better. I have not tried to graft with itoigawa personally but I have had good success with scion grafting kishu on to rocky mountain juniper

 

[delta6]

That is my future project...kishu or itoigawa on RMJ.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I'm also a big fan of regular chinensis by the way. I managed to obtain one and it's only slightly less puffed up compared to kishu.
I prefer it over itoigawa to be honest.

 

[delta6]

I don't have one yet. Imma start looking into that. Where did you get your chinensis?

 

[Dav4]

I used Kishu when I grafted my RMJs. The main reasons were that the Kishu foliage was simply better than the RMJ foliage, rust resistant, and I also had lots of Kishu grafting material available as I had been striking cuttings every time I trimmed my other junipers.

 

[delta6]

That looks nice! I'm looking for a bigger (same size like yours) RMJ, to be honest. But I couldn't find anything in my area or online. The few that I found online either can't deliver in CA or is not replying on my inquiries.

* I also have a CA juniper with Kishu foliage. Kishu looks very good on it.

 

[Dav4]

That looks nice! I'm looking for a bigger (same size like yours) RMJ, to be honest. But I couldn't find anything in my area or online. The few that I found online either can't deliver in CA or is not replying on my inquiries.

* I also have a CA juniper with Kishu foliage. Kishu looks very good on it.

I got these a while ago- like 18-19 years ago- as rough, collected stock from New England Bonsai Gardens. I'm not in CA, but I understand it's more difficult moving plants into the state. With that in mind, you might want to look into locally collected Sierra or Western junipers as well as Calis if you're interested in collected trees.

 

[delta6]

Those two are easy to get here so my priority is a large RMJ right now.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I don't have one yet. Imma start looking into that. Where did you get your chinensis?

Some gardening store in Germany had them, grafted on a cypress trunk.
I'm air layering off a bunch of branches to develop on their own.

It's actually more difficult to find 'wildtype' chinensis than it is to find kishu or itoigawa here. Most chinensis are all cultivated varieties like spartan, kaizuka, torulosa etc. or they're hybrids.

I sometimes wonder why that is, like, what's wrong with chinensis that makes it so that it hasn't been planted in gardens since the 1950's.

 

[delta6]

Some gardening store in Germany had them, grafted on a cypress trunk.
I'm air layering off a bunch of branches to develop on their own.

It's actually more difficult to find 'wildtype' chinensis than it is to find kishu or itoigawa here. Most chinensis are all cultivated varieties like spartan, kaizuka, torulosa etc. or they're hybrids.

I sometimes wonder why that is, like, what's wrong with chinensis that makes it so that it hasn't been planted in gardens since the 1950's.

Maybe the demand is low so the supply is low as well. I guess a lot of people prefer Itoigawa and Kishu hence the availability.