Unhappy bonsai - Help needed to identify type

[ColdButComfyWinterBreeze]

Hello bonsai nuts,

I am very new to bonsai, I don't know how to properly take care of one yet and you will probably notice that reading through this post. I was given this bonsai tree sometime around November of 2024. It was in great health, as you can see by the first picture. The guy who gave it to me told me to water it often and keep it indoors. So for most of the time I've had it, I've kept it indoors(Yes, I know now I shouldn't have done that) and watered it regularly, at least 5 to 6 times a week. For a while it looked healthy and grew flowers, but I have since moved to a new place.




My mother, while visiting, accidentally knocked it over and shattered the pot on the ground. I very quickly found a new pot at the store and reused it's substrate, but couldn't gather enough of the brown substrate to cover the top. I couldn't find the same substrate anywhere, so had to go with sphagnum moss instead. If you could tell me what substrate that is in the first picture, that'd be very helpful. I shredded a very small amount of the sphagnum moss and mixed it into the substrate as well as putting a thin layer on top as recommended by some other sources.



It now looks like this. It hurts me so much to see it in this state and I haven't treated this tree with the respect it deserves. I still water it regularly, I keep it outdoors now, but it snows in December through February, so I have to keep it indoors for a few months. It has some new leaves growing and 2 somewhat healthy branches with green leaves, but hasn't bloomed new flowers since last year. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated and applied to the best of my ability. If you can tell me what specie of tree it is, that'd be great. I tried using google lens by taking pictures of the leaves, but wasn't satisfied with the answers. I'm looking forward to making this plant look beautiful like it was last year.

Thank you

 

[LeftHandLuke]

Shame about the pot. Don't beat yourself up too much (or your mom! ). Cascades like yours are always awkward and difficult to watch 24-7. It's a miracle when they don't fall over or get knocked over!

I hope someone can help identify the species. I cannot. Depending on your location, you'll want to get the tree outside for the best chance of recovery. Those who identify the type of tree (and if you let us know your general location) will be able to advise on where to place it (full sun, partial sun, etc.) and whether the sphagnum is a good idea for recovery or if you need different substrate right away. Good luck!

 

[KateM]

It looks like Lavender star - Grewia occidentalis.
It's definitely should be taken indoors when temps are getting close to 50F and below.
It should be happy outside in summer. It does not like to dry out completely.
If you say it is growing new leaves just continue your care as you did before. It's probably still recovering after the fall and repot.

 

[ColdButComfyWinterBreeze]

Shame about the pot. Don't beat yourself up too much (or your mom! ). Cascades like yours are always awkward and difficult to watch 24-7. It's a miracle when they don't fall over or get knocked over!

I hope someone can help identify the species. I cannot. Depending on your location, you'll want to get the tree outside for the best chance of recovery. Those who identify the type of tree (and if you let us know your general location) will be able to advise on where to place it (full sun, partial sun, etc.) and whether the sphagnum is a good idea for recovery or if you need different substrate right away. Good luck!

Thankful for your reply, another question I'd have is when should I remove the metal wire. The roots are still wired. I'm considering getting a shorter, wider pot to let the roots spread on the sides, with more holes for better drainage/aeration. I am located on the Eastern side of Canada. Very hot during the summer(20 to 30 degree C) and very cold during winter(0 to -30 degree C).

 

[ColdButComfyWinterBreeze]

It looks like Lavender star - Grewia occidentalis.
It's definitely should be taken indoors when temps are getting close to 50F and below.
It should be happy outside in summer. It does not like to dry out completely.
If you say it is growing new leaves just continue your care as you did before. It's probably still recovering after the fall and repot.

Hi, thanks for the reply, you are right on the money. I've looked at some pictures and the flowers look exactly on what my tree once had. Much appreciated, friend.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Is there any way for you to contact the person you got it from to ask when they recommend taking the wire off? Or at the very least, maybe they can tell you how long it's been on that way someone here familiar with the species can point you in the right direction.

If it's a lavender star, from what I gather at a quick search, they're fast-growing species. Maybe a month from the date of wiring? I'd watch for wire bite, too. If you feel the wire is too snug, or see the tree swelling around the wire, take it off ASAP.

 

[ColdButComfyWinterBreeze]

Is there any way for you to contact the person you got it from to ask when they recommend taking the wire off? Or at the very least, maybe they can tell you how long it's been on that way someone here familiar with the species can point you in the right direction.

If it's a lavender star, from what I gather at a quick search, they're fast-growing species. Maybe a month from the date of wiring? I'd watch for wire bite, too. If you feel the wire is too snug, or see the tree swelling around the wire, take it off ASAP.

Thanks for replying,

I am fairly certain now it is a Lavender star. As you can see by the pictures I found of my tree. I unfortunately lost contact with the person. I'm unfamiliar with what wire biting is. I assume it's the tree growing tightly around the wire. I see no such thing on my tree, so that's good? If you think the wire around the tree is not bothering it, I'll leave it, but I might eventually have to remove the ones around the roots.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Right. And wire bite can leave some nasty scarring and permanent deformation.

You can always slowly unwind it to see if it's staying in place. If not, then simply reapply the wire.

If you've had it since late 2024 (sorry I just scrolled up to reread and saw that), it was probably due to come off...at least I would think.

Beautiful flowers on that, by the way.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

The first question is why and to what extent are the roots wired? Second question how long has the trunk been wired? If it was like that when you got it then you can likely remove the wire as the tree should be set in position. Also you definitely want to remove the wire before it starts to bite into the bark as this can create wire marks that may last years. Finally, read, read, read and watch YouTube videos.

 

[ColdButComfyWinterBreeze]

The first question is why and to what extent are the roots wired? Second question how long has the trunk been wired? If it was like that when you got it then you can likely remove the wire as the tree should be set in position. Also you definitely want to remove the wire before it starts to bite into the bark as this can create wire marks that may last years. Finally, read, read, read and watch YouTube videos.

Thanks for the reply, I could not tell you why the roots are wired, but I can tell you they're bundled up in a tight ball. I'm sure that's not helpful for getting aeration in the roots and hindering the recovery. I've noted the thing about the wire. I was initially only going to remove the root wires, but I'll remove it altogether. Thank you, and yes, my favorite watch right now is Notion Bonsai. Now, that I know the specie, I can pinpoint what my tree needs.

 

[Attmos]

The first question is why and to what extent are the roots wired? Second question how long has the trunk been wired? If it was like that when you got it then you can likely remove the wire as the tree should be set in position. Also you definitely want to remove the wire before it starts to bite into the bark as this can create wire marks that may last years. Finally, read, read, read and watch YouTube videos.

Thanks for asking that first question. Thought maybe I'd been missing something.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Thanks for the reply, I could not tell you why the roots are wired, but I can tell you they're bundled up in a tight ball. I'm sure that's not helpful for getting aeration in the roots and hindering the recovery. I've noted the thing about the wire. I was initially only going to remove the root wires, but I'll remove it altogether. Thank you, and yes, my favorite watch right now is Notion Bonsai. Now, that I know the specie, I can pinpoint what my tree needs.

I suggest watching Eric on Bonsaify, Nigel Saunders Bonsai Zone, Corin on Greenwood Bonsai, Peter Chan on Heron’s Bonsai, and if you understand Japanese or can take subtitles the guys on BonsaiQ.

 

[NMbonsai]

Be careful unwinding wire from the branches. If it's aluminum, you may save a long piece of wire for reuse and get away with only knocking off a few buds or leaves, which will not weaken a healthy tree. However, copper wire is much harder to unwind without breaking a branch. This will leave you with a stub where you wanted a long branch, the dieback of the entire branch to the trunk, with the resulting sudden loss of foliage mass being detrimental to the health of the tree. With some more delicate species, it might mean the death of the tree. It will at least limit planned design decisions, especially with a cascade. A safer way to remove copper wire is to carefully cut through it at each loop or maybe every other loop. Check the angle of your approach, being careful not to nick or cut into the bark. When done correctly, the cut pieces will just fall off the branches.
Finally, used copper wire will have to be reannealed before reuse to remove the "memory" that remains from it's being bent the first time. There are several threads on this site that describe this process. Depending on your situation, the time spent and the heat source required may not be worth the money saved by not buying new wire.

 

[Attmos]

Be careful unwinding wire from the branches. If it's aluminum, you may save a long piece of wire for reuse and get away with only knocking off a few buds or leaves, which will not weaken a healthy tree. However, copper wire is much harder to unwind without breaking a branch. This will leave you with a stub where you wanted a long branch, the dieback of the entire branch to the trunk, with the resulting sudden loss of foliage mass being detrimental to the health of the tree. With some more delicate species, it might mean the death of the tree. It will at least limit planned design decisions, especially with a cascade. A safer way to remove copper wire is to carefully cut through it at each loop or maybe every other loop. Check the angle of your approach, being careful not to nick or cut into the bark. When done correctly, the cut pieces will just fall off the branches.
Finally, used copper wire will have to be reannealed before reuse to remove the "memory" that remains from it's being bent the first time. There are several threads on this site that describe this process. Depending on your situation, the time spent and the heat source required may not be worth the money saved by not buying new wire.

Ok, now I get why everyone talks about annealing their wire, simple work hardening. Damn... I probly wasn't polite enough when I asked about it one time, but still, no one mentioned work hardening... which makes perfect sense.

 

[Attmos]

Be careful unwinding wire from the branches. If it's aluminum, you may save a long piece of wire for reuse and get away with only knocking off a few buds or leaves, which will not weaken a healthy tree. However, copper wire is much harder to unwind without breaking a branch. This will leave you with a stub where you wanted a long branch, the dieback of the entire branch to the trunk, with the resulting sudden loss of foliage mass being detrimental to the health of the tree. With some more delicate species, it might mean the death of the tree. It will at least limit planned design decisions, especially with a cascade. A safer way to remove copper wire is to carefully cut through it at each loop or maybe every other loop. Check the angle of your approach, being careful not to nick or cut into the bark. When done correctly, the cut pieces will just fall off the branches.
Finally, used copper wire will have to be reannealed before reuse to remove the "memory" that remains from it's being bent the first time. There are several threads on this site that describe this process. Depending on your situation, the time spent and the heat source required may not be worth the money saved by not buying new wire.

I guess I assumed they were talking about brand new wire, not reuse.

Anyway... Cool.

 

[NMbonsai]

Brand new copper wire off the roll doesn't have to be annealing before use. The wire on the roll hasn't had the tight coils and bends that we cause when applying the wire to bend the branches. As explained in one of the threads on annealing, the sressed copper actually forms crystalline microstructures that retain the shape of the coil and thereby holds the branch in shape. The annealing process above a certain temperature (750-800°F?) Breaks down these structures and returns the copper to it's more plastic condition. This is why copper holds the branches better than aluminum, especially with conifers.

 

[Attmos]

Brand new copper wire off the roll doesn't have to be annealing before use. The wire on the roll hasn't had the tight coils and bends that we cause when applying the wire to bend the branches. As explained in one of the threads on annealing, the sressed copper actually forms crystalline microstructures that retain the shape of the coil and thereby holds the branch in shape. The annealing process above a certain temperature (750-800°F?) Breaks down these structures and returns the copper to it's more plastic condition. This is why copper holds the branches better than aluminum, especially with conifers.

I'm pretty familiar with metal and basic metallurgy. I hope to buy my own welding setup soon and, if I can find a place, build myself a furnace for forging.

Plus, while I never got my license, I worked as an electrician for several years. Copper wire is.. was anyway, my stock in trade for a good while.

I understand metal, and what the annealing process does for it.. plus, I guess if it helps sell the point... I was accepted into The Ohio State University's College of Engineering before my first day as a freshman. lol (my only semi-notable academic achievement that really means nothing unless the fact that I slept through high school is considered.

Anyway, I do understand what you're telling me.

When I say I assumed they were talking about new wire I was kind of fibbing, so as not to criticize. But in this one conversation, and a few others I've looked at like it.... people were talking about buying new copper wire and annealing it before even using it. Didn't make sense to me and still doesn't. lol

 

[Attmos]

Brand new copper wire off the roll doesn't have to be annealing before use. The wire on the roll hasn't had the tight coils and bends that we cause when applying the wire to bend the branches. As explained in one of the threads on annealing, the sressed copper actually forms crystalline microstructures that retain the shape of the coil and thereby holds the branch in shape. The annealing process above a certain temperature (750-800°F?) Breaks down these structures and returns the copper to it's more plastic condition. This is why copper holds the branches better than aluminum, especially with conifers.

Because of the way I was raised.. and by whom... I'll admit that I'm a bit sensitive to being looked at as ignorant. Sorry.

But that's not to say that I don't recognize superior knowledge and experience when it's apparent.

 

[LeftHandLuke]

Didn't make sense to me and still doesn't. lol

If it's helpful (and if I understand what's being said correctly -- and apologies if this is already obvious!) copper bonsai wire is annealed, but after you put a few bends in it, it's pretty much done and can't be re-used. Again, you're probably aware of this so just adding it here in case it's helpful for someone who stops by the thread. Also sharing this because I wasn't necessarily aware of this for quite some time. I had high hopes on re-using my copper wire to offset the expense, but much to my dismay... I tried unwinding it in order to re-use it, which of course risks tearing the crap out to the tree because it's so rigid. I now snip it off in tiny pieces and don't even bother trying to unwind it. Some folks who manage to unwind it then find a way to straighten it out and then throw it on a grill to anneal it again. I'm full-blown DIY guy, but that's just too much for even me. The past few years I have started throwing the copper scraps into a box just in case it accumulates enough to warrant cashing it in or gifting it to someone who collects scrap. Seems a shame to send it to a landfill.

 

[NMbonsai]

I'm pretty familiar with metal and basic metallurgy. I hope to buy my own welding setup soon and, if I can find a place, build myself a furnace for forging.

Plus, while I never got my license, I worked as an electrician for several years. Copper wire is.. was anyway, my stock in trade for a good while.

I understand metal, and what the annealing process does for it.. plus, I guess if it helps sell the point... I was accepted into The Ohio State University's College of Engineering before my first day as a freshman. lol (my only semi-notable academic achievement that really means nothing unless the fact that I slept through high school is considered.

Anyway, I do understand what you're telling me.

When I say I assumed they were talking about new wire I was kind of fibbing, so as not to criticize. But in this one conversation, and a few others I've looked at like it.... people were talking about buying new copper wire and annealing it before even using it. Didn't make sense to me and still doesn't. lol

I have used a propane gas grill that will attain the temperatures needed for annealing copper. I let it run on high with the lid closed for a while. Then, when the temperature gauge in the lid reached 750-800°F, i dropped the used copper wire pieces on the grill for a while, keeping an eye on the temp gauge. After about 10 minutes, I pick them up with barbecue tongs and drop them on the patio and let them cool for a bit. I then beat them flat with a hammer on a stump, not on the patio concrete. Crude but effective and is worth the trouble on the larger gauges of copper wire, which have become pretty pricey lately.