Understanding the value of grafted trees

[Paradox]

This one is also grafted.

 

[chicago1980]

Whoa! Most of the posts in this thread are totally misguided.

Grafting is very, very common in the bonsai world. Many of the great Japanese trees we see in pictures have been grafted in one way or another.

Grafting is a very useful skill to have. Using grafts, it’s possible to place a branch where you want one. Using grafts, it’s possible to completely change the foliage on a trunk with poor foliage. Using grafts, it’s possible to grow cultivars of trees that don’t grow from seed.

Let me reiterate: Many of the best bonsai in the world are grafted, and would not exist, were they not grafted.

That said...

Not all grafted trees make good bonsai. In general, the landscape industry grafted trees usually are inferior because they are not concerned with the aesthics of the lower trunk. They graft to create a specimen of a tree that has desirable characteristics. Any named cultivar has to be propogated by asexual means by grafting, cuttings, or layers. As described in a post above, the most economical method is by grafting.

In the bonsai world, the skill of grafting is taken to another level. Sometimes, it IS to just create a new tree. But the graft is done in such a way as to hide it as much as possible. On some trees, that means the graft is placed as close to the roots as possible. On some trees, the graft might be higher, but the tree is trained to have a branch that obscures the view of the graft union.

Some trees might get branches placed on to places where the artist wants them. Some trees can be thread grafted, or approach grafted using branches from the same tree. Or a scion can be taken from one place on a tree then cleft grafted on another position on the tree.

Japanese White Pines are commonly grafted onto Japanese Black Pine stock. Why? It is NOT because JWP roots are weak! LOL!!! It’s because that beautiful tight tufted blue foliage is rare In nature. Many JWP seedlings have longish loose green needles that curl a bit. The foliage of most JWP seedlings would make for poor bonsai! We associate JWP with the beautiful foliage, and unfortunately JWP does not pass that along via seed. Cuttings rarely take, less than 1%, and layers rarely take. So, the best way to propogate is via grafts. Another issue is it takes JWP at least 2 decades, if not 3, to produce mature, flaky bark. Grafting onto JBP will produce a trunk that looks “old” within about 8 years. Finally, the JBP trunk thickens at a faster rate than does JWP. Therefore, in Japan there is an industry that can produce lots of JWP trees grafted on JBP trunks in an economical manner.

There’s a LOT more to say about grafting, but this post is already too long. Suffice it to say, grafting is a way to create superior bonsai from inferior material if the skill is applied intelligently.

Excellent

 

[Adair M]

This one is also grafted.

View attachment 350983

Nice! Needs a little wire, but nice tree!

 

[Paradox]

Nice! Needs a little wire, but nice tree!

Thank You
I did wire it since the picture was taken.
Why I dont have an updated picture?

 

[Paradox]

Thank You
I did wire it since the picture was taken.
Why I dont have an updated picture?

Just to be clear, the tree isnt dead, I just havent taken a new picture

 

[andrewiles]

So sounds like there is agreement a tree with a visible graft is less valuable for bonsai. Regardless of where it is. While a tree with non-visible grafts is completely acceptable -- and may even be necessary in some species to create a great tree.

I suppose those with more experience know rules of thumb for which grafts will fade as the tree grows and which will not. Going back the maple example every cultivar I see in local nurseries has an ugly graft on the lower trunk. How to know whether that graft will fade, or to work around that from the beginning with air layers and cuttings?

 

[leatherback]

Going back the maple example every cultivar I see in local nurseries has an ugly graft on the lower trunk. How to know whether that graft will fade, or to work around that from the beginning with air layers and cuttings?

I use as a rule of thumb..
A well-done graft might fade in as the bark matures, assuming not too much difference in growing speed
A graft that is ugly upon purchase (bulges, mis-match in alignment) will never become pretty

When working with a tree where the main branches still need to be developed, I think I would always aim at layering it off the rootstock if the variety is able to grow well on its own roots.

 

[Shibui]

So sounds like there is agreement a tree with a visible graft is less valuable for bonsai. Regardless of where it is. While a tree with non-visible grafts is completely acceptable -- and may even be necessary in some species to create a great tree.

Correct.

I suppose those with more experience know rules of thumb for which grafts will fade as the tree grows and which will not. Going back the maple example every cultivar I see in local nurseries has an ugly graft on the lower trunk. How to know whether that graft will fade, or to work around that from the beginning with air layers and cuttings?

I'm not sure there is any rule of thumb that will predict which grafts or which cultivars will improve and which will not. A lot will depend how much the trunk is to grow before the tree is bonsai ready. Most grafted landscape maples do not show any sign of the graft when they have thickened sufficiently to swallow the graft union. The rougher the graft union the thicker the trunk will need to get before the graft union grows over. Trimming the stubs can help the trunk grow over the graft. Lower grafts seem to suit bonsai better but higher grafts are easier and quicker to make so usually preferred by commercial nurseries where numbers mean profit. Neater grafts are certainly better than the rough side veneer grafts used commercially so it is probably worth seeking out places where grafting is done with bonsai in mind.
Stock and scion with similar bark will look far better as bonsai so best to avoid grafted trees where the bark above and below are markedly different in color or texture. Japanese maple bark usually ages to grey so early differences may not be a big problem later.
Different species grow at different rates so inter species grafts sometimes swell unduly above or below the graft over time but that seems to be unpredictable. I have some grafted trees where the stock has swelled and others with the same combination that has not.

Layering is probably one of the best techniques for making commercially grafted trees into something suitable for bonsai.
Layer just below the graft so roots grow from the stock to get maximum benefit from the stronger roots but the graft union will be right down in the nebari where it will be more difficult to see.
Layer above the graft so the tree will not have any graft. Note that some varieties are very difficult to root so try to check first whether the variety you have does OK.

IMHO JM varieties are overrated as bonsai. Many have long internodes, difficult growth habits, large leaves, etc. The majority of great JM bonsai are seedling grown.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

The majority of great JM bonsai are seedling grown.

How do you know this?

In my experience the very many 'great' Japanese Maple bonsai that I have inquired about have all passed through several hands over their 60+ years in training, and the current owners have no idea whether that tree began its life as a seedling, cutting, or air layer.

It is true that there are many growers who start Acer palmatum (or indeed, JWP) from seed. However, there are just as many who insist on propagation via cuttings because in their view the strain of their standard/plain Acer palmatum has valuable qualities worth preserving as @Adair M described regarding JWP.

The same can be said for many varieties.

There is a substantial number growers and nurseries in Japan who have developed nameless 'house' strains of plain Japanese Maple that they preserve by propagating via cuttings. My teacher in Quebec has done exactly this. I currently work with 4 strains of standard/plain Acer palmatum. It is more work and more expensive to propagate them via cutting as opposed to seed, but at least I know exactly what I am producing. Seeds are not predictable in this way, and can have bad qualities--they are not a 'safe bet'

I also work with 2 strains of Acer buerguerianum, one of which is the prestigious yet 'plain' trident from Fuyo-en.

 

[leatherback]

I also work with 2 strains of Acer buerguerianum, one of which is the prestigious yet 'plain' trident from Fuyo-en.

Do you know of pink flushing tridents? Are they common?

 

[Adair M]

How do you know this?

In my experience the very many 'great' Japanese Maple bonsai that I have inquired about have all passed through several hands over their 60+ years in training, and the current owners have no idea whether that tree began its life as a seedling, cutting, or air layer.

It is true that there are many growers who start Acer palmatum (or indeed, JWP) from seed. However, there are just as many who insist on propagation via cuttings because in their view the strain of their standard/plain Acer palmatum has valuable qualities worth preserving as @Adair M described regarding JWP.

The same can be said for many varieties.

There is a substantial number growers and nurseries in Japan who have developed nameless 'house' strains of plain Japanese Maple that they preserve by propagating via cuttings. My teacher in Quebec has done exactly this. I currently work with 4 strains of standard/plain Acer palmatum. It is more work and more expensive to propagate them via cutting as opposed to seed, but at least I know exactly what I am producing. Seeds are not predictable in this way, and can have bad qualities--they are not a 'safe bet'

I also work with 2 strains of Acer buerguerianum, one of which is the prestigious yet 'plain' trident from Fuyo-en.

Deciduous trees are more likely to be able to be propagated via cutting than pines would be. Shimpaku grows well from cuttings. Azalea do, too.

Some varieties of Japanese Maple, however, are notorious for being difficult to grow as cuttings.

 

[Forsoothe!]

How do you know this?

In my experience the very many 'great' Japanese Maple bonsai that I have inquired about have all passed through several hands over their 60+ years in training, and the current owners have no idea whether that tree began its life as a seedling, cutting, or air layer.

It is true that there are many growers who start Acer palmatum (or indeed, JWP) from seed. However, there are just as many who insist on propagation via cuttings because in their view the strain of their standard/plain Acer palmatum has valuable qualities worth preserving as @Adair M described regarding JWP.

The same can be said for many varieties.

There is a substantial number growers and nurseries in Japan who have developed nameless 'house' strains of plain Japanese Maple that they preserve by propagating via cuttings. My teacher in Quebec has done exactly this. I currently work with 4 strains of standard/plain Acer palmatum. It is more work and more expensive to propagate them via cutting as opposed to seed, but at least I know exactly what I am producing. Seeds are not predictable in this way, and can have bad qualities--they are not a 'safe bet'

I also work with 2 strains of Acer buerguerianum, one of which is the prestigious yet 'plain' trident from Fuyo-en.

I disagree that seedlings are less desirable than cutting-grown for bonsai, and I don't believe that most USA JM that wind up in bonsai are cutting-grown. Seedlings do show lots of different characteristics almost immediately, especially those from trees which are adjacent to multiple varieties because JM are wind-polinated. I have ten and I'm a piker. People interested in JM should be collecting & starting seeds locally for that reason.

As to long internodes: JM all reduce as well or better than almost any other species. I only as say "almost" as a concession to the fact that I myself do not know everything about every species.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I disagree that seedlings are less desirable than cutting-grown for bonsai

I never said that seedlings are less desirable than cuttings. I said that seedling are less predictable than cuttings, which is by definition correct.

Within the realm of standard/plain (i.e. non-cultivar) acer palamtum, some people propagate by seed knowing that there will be variability in their material, and some people propagate by cutting in order to preserve characteristics of a particular strain.

One is not better than the other. They are two different methods used for different purposes. I use each method to meet specific objectives.

As to long internodes: JM all reduce as well or better than almost any other species. I only as say "almost" as a concession to the fact that I myself do not know everything about every species. [emphasis added]

You also don't know everything about every Japanese Maple cultivar or seedling variation... It is well-known that many Acer palmatum varieties are terrible for bonsai and--to respond to your point specifically--many of them produce uncontrollable internode lengths (and leaf sizes). In the vast world of Acer palmatum, there is but a relative handful of strains that will enable the best kinds of results for the species.

 

[Adair M]

I never said that seedlings are less desirable than cuttings. I said that seedling are less predictable than cuttings, which is by definition correct.

Within the realm of standard/plain (i.e. non-cultivar) acer palamtum, some people propagate by seed knowing that there will be variability in their material, and some people propagate by cutting in order to preserve characteristics of a particular strain.

One is not better than the other. They are two different methods used for different purposes. I use each method to meet specific objectives.



You also don't know everything about every Japanese Maple cultivar or seedling variation... It is well-known that many Acer palmatum varieties are terrible for bonsai and--to respond to your point specifically--many of them produce uncontrollable internode lengths (and leaf sizes). In the vast world of Acer palmatum, there is but a relative handful of strains that will enable the best kinds of results for the species.

A lot of the great Japanese grown and developed Japanese Maples will be described as “Japanese Mountain Maple”. They may have been collected, who knows? Or grown from seed from collected trees.

 

[AlainK]

I said that seedling are less predictable than cuttings

... and :

One is not better than the other. They are two different methods used for different purposes. I use each method to meet specific objectives.

Right.

It's fun to grow J. maples from seeds.

I have some that are slightly pendulous, red or light green colours in spring, others that have butter yellow leaves or bright red leaves in Autumn, more or less dissected leaves, etc.

The ones I keep for "would-be bonsai" are those with short internodes.

Grafted trees : some will show almost no difference in the trunk colour/girth after a few years, somme will keep a difference both in colour or make an unsightly bulge ten years later.

Cuttings : yes, some are very weak on their own roots. They will develop for 2,3 or 4 years, then die unexpectidly. but many can be reproduced this way. It's a matter of trial and error

 

[Shibui]

How do you know this?

In my experience the very many 'great' Japanese Maple bonsai that I have inquired about have all passed through several hands over their 60+ years in training, and the current owners have no idea whether that tree began its life as a seedling, cutting, or air layer.

It is true that there are many growers who start Acer palmatum (or indeed, JWP) from seed. However, there are just as many who insist on propagation via cuttings because in their view the strain of their standard/plain Acer palmatum has valuable qualities worth preserving as @Adair M described regarding JWP.

The same can be said for many varieties.

There is a substantial number growers and nurseries in Japan who have developed nameless 'house' strains of plain Japanese Maple that they preserve by propagating via cuttings. My teacher in Quebec has done exactly this. I currently work with 4 strains of standard/plain Acer palmatum. It is more work and more expensive to propagate them via cutting as opposed to seed, but at least I know exactly what I am producing. Seeds are not predictable in this way, and can have bad qualities--they are not a 'safe bet'

I also work with 2 strains of Acer buerguerianum, one of which is the prestigious yet 'plain' trident from Fuyo-en.

My apologies. The words did not quite match my intent which was to differentiate standard/plain AP from the decorative varieties usually sold for landscape planting. As I have great difficulty striking AP cuttings I normally grow from seed so naturally have a cognitive connection between 'seedling' and 'standard/plain' species.
Having a variety that has the attributes for bonsai gives a distinct advantage when developing bonsai and I commend you for sourcing and maintaining these varieties. Have any of them been named?

While it is true that seedlings do have some variation I find I get satisfactory uniformity with seed from the standard species we have here in the garden. They certainly produce much better trees for bonsai than any of the 'named' cultivars available commercially in terms of growth rate, leaf size, internode length and ramification potential.