Two kinds of bonsai attitudes: Realists verses Traditionalists, or the Good Guys verses...

[Woocash]

First, those that can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Ah, please do go on!

 

[Forsoothe!]

HYG
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Des Moines is a lot different than I thought!

 

[Clicio]

Your questioning of Forsoothe’s motives as you do seems gratuitous.

Questions and discussions are the motive forums (fora) are created.
Apart from that, as @Adair M has showed enough trees and knowledge here in Bnut and in real bonsai shows, I think he should be heard with respect.
And... I quite agree with his questioning.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Des Moines is a lot different than I thought!

Stalker
Just because you haven’t seen them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You need to use your imagination- this tree could be anywhere and many different species could grow in this form.

 

[Kanorin]

I went to the park today that is at the end of my street. I saw some taper-less trees, some closer to sumo proportions with a lot of taper, some informal brooms, lots of informal uprights, some with fairly sparse branching, some with impressive ramification, some with very few surface roots, and some with quite a lot. I think I'd be pretty happy to have representations of all of those on my benches.

In any case, I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, so I just followed suit and rambled for a bit.

 

[Gene Deci]

Questions and discussions are the motive forums (fora) are created.
Apart from that, as @Adair M has showed enough trees and knowledge here in Bnut and in real bonsai shows, I think he should be heard with respect.
And... I quite agree with his questioning.

I don't believe my post disrespected Adair whose work I do respect. As you say, these forum are created for questioning which is just what I did.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Gosh, is this thread so 2020’s, or what?

I would submit that we humans are, in large, subject to “Presentism” or in my definition having the hubris to think that what one sees as “normal” is shaped by ones place in Earth’s time, with no absolute regard to reality.

There once were large trees with outstanding nebari everywhere... and still are... where there weren’t or aren’t humans, or are specifically protected for those who want a dose of reality. (Kind of like Zoos for trees eh?)

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Gabler]

What is the purpose of this thread, Forsoothe? Do none of your trees have good nebari? And are you trying to make excuses for that? Are you trying to get permission from the forum to have trees with poor nebari, using the excuse that poor nebari is “naturalistic”?

If that’s NOT what you are saying, please clarify. Because, it certainly seems that’s what you are crying about.

Fior sure, developing good nebari is challenging. It’s one of the most difficult aspects of bonsai, and a bad nebari can be one of the most difficult “faults” to correct. A good nebari IS part of what defines a quality bonsai. When I judge a bonsai, the lower trunk and nebari get twice the weight than any other aspect of the tree.

So... what are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

I understood Forsoothe to mean that the most-praised aspects of good bonsai aren't emulating nature as much as they would like to claim to.

 

[MrWunderful]

I understood Forsoothe to mean that the most-praised aspects of good bonsai aren't emulating nature as much as they would like to claim to.

But for a lot of people, that isnt always what bonsai is about, and emulating nature in a “stylized” way is subjective.

Also, the Claim that no natural trees have melty flared nebari, or aren’t “taters” simply is not true.

 

[Gabler]

But for a lot of people, that isnt always what bonsai is about, and emulating nature in a “stylized” way is subjective.

Also, the Claim that no natural trees have melty flared nebari, or aren’t “taters” simply is not true.

Agreed. It's all a matter of taste.

 

[_#1_]

Obviously the OP is a bonsai referee.

Calls foul but can't shoot a free throw lol

All in jest

 

[Adair M]

Your questioning of Forsoothe’s motives as you do seems gratuitous. Why not just take his statements at face value and express your opinion. One might be tempted to turn it around and ask what was your purpose in your post? Are you just trying to denigrate Forsoothe because you have no answer to his arguments?

Realists vs. Traditionalists

then,

Good Guys vs. ???

Obviously, the ??? would be “bad guys”.

I would consider myself a “Traditionalist”. I study under a person who was an apprentice in Japan. Forsoothe is implying that I’m a “bad guy”.

 

[Djtommy]

talk about attitudes it seems to be more open minded and close minded .
closes mindedness seems to be often a lack of things,( knowledge, experience, exposure to various something something ,...)

 

[Gabler]

talk about attitudes it seems to be more open minded and close minded .
closes mindedness seems to be often a lack of things,( knowledge, experience, exposure to various something something ,...)

Open-mindedness and closed-mindedness are largely determined at birth, most likely genetically, though potentially epigenetically.

 

[Rivian]

Yet again I wish there was a "Rolling eyes" reaction emoji

 

[Haines' Trees]

Yet again I wish there was a "Rolling eyes" reaction emoji

 

[Rivian]

I meant adding it to the options when you hover over "like" on the bottom right of any post. Though maybe it would be overused and promote a bad attitude, idk. Just a thought.

 

[leatherback]

And secondly we have

Ah, please do go on!

 

[Gabler]

@Forsoothe!

I think the consensus is that most people liken the "sumo" trees to abstract art and/or charicature, and also that click bait titles make people angry.

 

[Forsoothe!]

car·i·ca·ture

/ˈkerikəCHər,ˈkerikəˌCHo͝or/
noun: caricature; plural noun: caricatures
a picture, description, or imitation of a person in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.
"There are elements of caricature in the portrayal of the hero"
Similar: cartoon, distorted/exaggerated drawing, distortion, parody, satire, lampoon, burlesque, mimicry, travesty, farce, skit, squib, sendup, takeoff, spoof

pasquinade
a ludicrous or grotesque version of someone or something.
"he looked like a caricature of his normal self"
verb: caricature; 3rd person present: caricatures; past tense: caricatured; past participle: caricatured; gerund or present participle: caricaturing
make or give a comically or grotesquely exaggerated representation of (someone or something).
Similar: parody, satirize, lampoon, mimic, ridicule, mock

Yes, indeed. Art taken to an extreme is still art, but where is the fine line between beautiful and ugly? If it's in the eye of the beholder then we need to respect art that we don't like, and we need to respect those who don't like our version. It's a two-way street. Or is it? Thomas Jefferson questioned censorship, "...Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched?..."

There are guardians of the art in bonsai that demand obedience to a set of measurements that are not realistic, and insist that there is no true bonsai other than Japanese. Non-believers are illiterate, unskilled, etc. Only true believers may opine.

Over my dead body.