Trying out uranium glass in my seed tray

BillsBayou

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Scattered a few dozen pond cypress seeds across potting soil and watered them into the soil. The two pieces of uranium glass are fairly radioactive. Maybe nothing will happen. Maybe it'll screw with the DNA of the seedlings. The odds of that being something useful are about 0.000105 : 1

Seeds were collected in January 2024 from a row of landscape trees in New Orleans. The germination rate is unknown. There is another tray of seeds that are being properly cultivated away from the radiation.

Expected results: Nothing useful

IMG_9005.jpeg

Expected results: 0.00% useful
TL;DR: I'm a doofus with glowing rocks and the math is against me. I can't talk myself out of it. Don't waste your time.

Here's how I calculate my dismal odds of success:
The effects of radiation on the DNA of pond cypress seedlings interests me. There is a possibility that the radioactive material will damage the DNA of the plants. Of the damaged plants, there is a possibility the plants will continue to grow. Of the plants that continue to grow, there is a possibility the growth will become mutated. Of the mutated plants, there is a possibility that the plants will be interesting. Of the interesting plants, there is a possibility that it can be used as bonsai material. The number of useful plants can be determined by "Bill's Bayou's Equation" (apologies to astrophysicist Dr. Frank Drake😉)
N = G ⋅ 𝑓(g)⋅ 𝑓(d) ⋅ 𝑓(m) ⋅ 𝑓(i) ⋅ 𝑓(b) ⋅ 𝑓(k)
N — Number of bonsai worthy trees per 100 seeds planted
G — Normal germination rate
𝑓(g) — Fraction of exposed seedlings that grow
𝑓(d) — Fraction that are damaged
𝑓(m) — Fraction that are mutated
𝑓(i) — Fraction that are interesting
𝑓(b) — Fraction that are bonsai worthy
𝑓(k) — Ignore this for now, see below

For example, here's a best-guess pulling numbers out of thin air:
70% Germination rate, or 70/100
50% Survive exposure to radiation and grow
30% Visibly damaged, stunted, weak, burned, etc...
10% Survivors that mutate, look healthy but different
10% Mutated trees that are interesting (burls, galls, and tumors aren't interesting, just ugly)
10% Can be used for bonsai (usual bonsai selection criteria)
N = 70% ⋅ 50% ⋅ 30% ⋅ 10% ⋅ 10% ⋅ 10%
N = 0.7 ⋅ 0.5 ⋅ 0.3 ⋅ 0.1 ⋅ 0.1 ⋅ 0.1
N = 0.000105 or 0.0105% (1% of 1%)

If I plant 10,000 seeds within an area of exposure, I can expect to get 1.05 mutated trees that can be used for bonsai. Here, "mutated" means the tree is visibly abnormal but looks good as a bonsai.

Note on 𝑓(k): Bill's Bayou's Equation should also include the "Knowledge" factor, 𝑓(k). Given that I really don't know what I'm doing, 𝑓(k) diminishingly close to 0. That's the real expectation of the experiment's results. I'll put that in my research paper's footnotes in tiny print on the last page. "[Note] If you've read this far, you've wasted your time."

The math gets worse, even ignoring the 𝑓(k) value. What defines the area of effect (AOE) in a seed tray? The AOE would be an area, roughly circular in shape (ceteris paribus), with the radiation source in the middle. The size of the AOE circle is a distance beyond which the expected germination rate is equal to the germination rate of a control group.

Example, a 12 inch AOE is discovered:
The radiation source is placed in the center of a 36" round container which contains planting substrate.
Seeds are planted in concentric rings around the center. We note the number of seeds in each circle.
As the seeds emerge, the germination rate of each ring is calculated as (# grown)/(# planted)
The germination rate is low between 11 and 12 inches, but average from 12 to 13 inches
The AOE is a circle with a 12 inch radius. That's where we will plant seeds.
The germination rate within 4 inches from the radiation is zero. The AOE has a dead zone. We won't plant seeds there.
Seeds are planted in the AOE from 4-inches to 12 inches out from the center.
The square inches of the seed planting area is simply the area of the larger "pie are square" minus the smaller "pie are square".
144𝜋 - 16𝜋 = 128𝜋 ≈ 402 square inches.
That's 402 seeds if we plant 1 seed per square inch.
With a return rate of 0.000105 for interesting bonsai material, on average, 0.042 trees will be good as bonsai material.
To get a non-fractional tree, run the experiment 24 times on 9,648 seeds. On average, 1.008 trees will be good as bonsai material.

Again, Knowledge, 𝑓(k), is likely zero. I will never get an interesting bonsai tree doing this. I did the math to talk myself out of doing this and failed. The good news for you, dear reader, is that this is my time to waste. Unless, of course, if you read this far, then yes, I have wasted your time.
 
The uranium glass won't actually cause mutations. It is way too weak a source of radiation. Of course this is a bit of a joke post, but I wonder if using UV B light and blasting pollen with it is the best way to do mutagenesis breeding without a lab.
It does not seem to be well-described in the literature. You can get a nail polish dryer for like 10 dollar. Though I wonder if these are now made safer, because if not they can cause mutations to the person drying their nails.

And you'd have to find a dose that is deadly, then go lower. Mutation breeding seems like a huge crapshoot. Even if you get 1 good mutation, you likely get 9 bad ones alongside. And you'd somehow have to breed out those bad ones and keep the good ones. And as R0b says, they are likely to be recessive.

Reminds me of Thunderf00t who also grew plants in radioactive rocks or soil. He made youtube videos. But the stupid thing about them was that he was supposed to argue that radiation wasn't inherently dangerous. Because his plants grew fine. So we shouldn't be afraid of nuclear power. Of course, plants deal with radiation much better than humans.
 
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Id be curious if high temps could work.
Btw. suggested dosage for mutagenesis is either 50% lethality or 50% growth reduction. It would be good to know the usual germination rate of what youre growing. Say normally half would sprout, then you would tune the dosage of your ionising radiotion or whatever it happens to be so that 25% sprout.
 
Don’t forget usually mutations are recessive and to see them you need to selfpolinate the M1.
"Don't forget" Ha! I've forgotten all of college biology. That was 40 years ago. "M1" got me hunting and I found this: The Inheritance of Variation

It's a slide-show synopsis, but very helpful. 𝑓(k), from my original post, is no longer zero, but every other factor has dropped. So, still wasting my own time. I'm trying to hit a bottle with a shotgun from two miles out. It ain't happening.
 
Nice.

The original text of my post included focusing on the LD50 plants; if such plants could exist in my small tray. Now I'm thinking that this area would be my best candidates for M1 plants.

So much I don't know. I'm trying to build a lunar rocket using things I find in recycle bins.
 
The uranium glass won't actually cause mutations. It is way too weak a source of radiation. Of course this is a bit of a joke post, but I wonder if using UV B light and blasting pollen with it is the best way to do mutagenesis breeding without a lab.
It does not seem to be well-described in the literature. You can get a nail polish dryer for like 10 dollar. Though I wonder if these are now made safer, because if not they can cause mutations to the person drying their nails.
When nothing happens to M2, it'll be a joke post. See you in 20 years.

Why stop at UVB? Have you seen the whole room sanitizers? They use UVC bulbs! Who the hell thought releasing UVC bulbs to the public was a good idea? There's your experiment. UVA reddens the skin. UVB burns the skin. UVC kills the skin. UVC was nothing to worry about because we are never exposed to it naturally. Now we can bathe in all that mystery goodness. I know the instructions tell you to never expose yourself to the light. But I was an idiot as a child. I would have purposely exposed my skin to the light to see what it does. I wonder how early I could have developed skin cancer given the chance?

But then again, let's blast all the pollen!
 
Id be curious if high temps could work.
Btw. suggested dosage for mutagenesis is either 50% lethality or 50% growth reduction. It would be good to know the usual germination rate of what youre growing. Say normally half would sprout, then you would tune the dosage of your ionising radiotion or whatever it happens to be so that 25% sprout.
That's what I was going for in my original text, the LD50 zone. Given that I didn't count the seeds in concentric circles around the radioactive source, I won't be able to accurately determine where the LD50 zone exists. Of course, that assumes the glass has enough radiation to inhibit growth.
 
Yeah, you will probably get nothing unexpected, but who knows. I say never say never.
At least it will keep you off the streets. 🤣
 
Yeah, you will probably get nothing unexpected, but who knows. I say never say never.
At least it will keep you off the streets. 🤣
There's a part of me that likes trying out bad ideas. If you can't be known for your spectacular success, be known for your spectacular failures. Can I get to the moon by dropping a very large rock on the far side of the see-saw? Probably not. Let's try it anyway.

SpectacularFailures2.jpg
 
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There's a part of me that likes trying out bad ideas. If you can't be known for your spectacular success, be known for your spectacular failure. Can I get to the moon by dropping a very large rock on the far side of the see-saw? Probably not. Let's try it anyway.
I get that my friend. We are brethren. But I have gotten to the age that I actually make every attempt at logic ..... before I throw caution to the wind.
With a big enough see saw and rock, I still think its possible.
 
I like your thinking. It's a blast reading the post and I am interested in following the results. However, f(m) of 10% is very optimistic but I love optimists!
 
There's a part of me that likes trying out bad ideas. If you can't be known for your spectacular success, be known for your spectacular failures. Can I get to the moon by dropping a very large rock on the far side of the see-saw? Probably not. Let's try it anyway.
Someone hold mah beer. I'm gonna join Bill.
 
Id be curious if high temps could work.
Yes. 40+ degrees C can cause serious issues with embryonic tissue.
Not sure what the exact temp was, but I think we've used 43°C to turn pollen diploid. Sometimes triploid. Sometimes a multitude of that.
I've seen some freaks in those times.. Plants that should look normal, turned into liverwort looking blobs. Leaf and stem mutations were very common too.
 
You have more impact using your cell phone near the seeds. It and a host of household electronics are moreUranium glass glows a bit because the element flouresces naturally. HAs nothing to do with radiation emanating from it. Uranium glass is pretty harmless. I mean, little old ladies collect it for decorating 😁
 
You have more impact using your cell phone near the seeds. It and a host of household electronics are moreUranium glass glows a bit because the element flouresces naturally. HAs nothing to do with radiation emanating from it. Uranium glass is pretty harmless. I mean, little old ladies collect it for decorating 😁
Ahhh! This explains the bearded ladies. Thanks for the info!
 
Uranium glass/ceramics are radioactive. But you can still safely eat or drink for them.
The worst thing would be getting dust particles inside your lungs or something. Clothing and skin actually help protect you from alpha particles. Alpha emitters are usually not dangerous while outside of the body.
Also a reason why it doesn't really do much vs plants and why they used x rays for irradiating plants.

Wifi and your cell phone has almost no energy. Those photons can only heat up water. Uranium can give off actual energetic particles that break molecular bonds, potentially causing cancer. It is just really really rare because just a few inches of air can stop the alpha particles. So they need to be inside your body. And as the decay rate of uranium is also really long, the release is also slow. But you don't want uranium dust inside your lungs for decades.
But more importantly, uranium oxide is also chemically toxic.
 
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Contact these guys and ask if they can do a range of exposures for you


Good luck ;)
 
Why stop at UVB? Have you seen the whole room sanitizers? They use UVC bulbs! Who the hell thought releasing UVC bulbs to the public was a good idea?
The people who put X-ray machines in she stores?

The people selling Amygdalin as a cure all? (I guess cyanide poisoning solves all your problems)

The people who put Asian carp in our waterways and are now trying to blame fishermen?

The people who tell me using Roundup in my driveway will end the world, but then areal spray entire forests?

Nothing makes sense anymore. I don’t know if it’s got worse, or if I’m just more aware.
 
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