Trying again princess persimmon and pinus densiflora seeds

[namnhi]

Well am trying princess persimmon seed again. Few years ago I tried and got zero germination. Hope for better luck this time. Also trying some japanese red pine seeds.
PP seeds were pretty hard to come by last few years. I just ordered them from https://sheffields.com/

 

[bwaynef]

I've got a tray full of PP seedlings. I scarified them (physically, in a blades-taped-up blender) then stratified for some amount of time that I forget. I *think* it was a month. Then planted and was patient. They didn't sprout uniformly, but basically one growing season in and they're incredibly uniform in size. I started from actual fruit, so the stratification period may be more important if you're buying dried seeds. Also, I do NOT recommend the hassle of getting the seeds out of the pulp of the fruit. Its messy! Whatever they charge you for processed seeds is worth it.

 

[namnhi]

I've got a tray full of PP seedlings. I scarified them (physically, in a blades-taped-up blender) then stratified for some amount of time that I forget. I *think* it was a month. Then planted and was patient. They didn't sprout uniformly, but basically one growing season in and they're incredibly uniform in size. I started from actual fruit, so the stratification period may be more important if you're buying dried seeds. Also, I do NOT recommend the hassle of getting the seeds out of the pulp of the fruit. Its messy! Whatever they charge you for processed seeds is worth it.

Thank Wayne. I think I will have enough see to experiment different ways and see if I can get them to germinate this time. I believe last time I might have kept the seed too wet as some of them got moldy.

 

[bwaynef]

I've got roughly 80 2- (or is it 3?) year olds and too many to count that germinated this spring. I've got to do something with the 80 this fall or I won't ever get any movement into them.

 

[namnhi]

I've got roughly 80 2- (or is it 3?) year olds and too many to count that germinated this spring. I've got to do something with the 80 this fall or I won't ever get any movement into them.

I find that they back bud well with chop... so you can get taper and movement that way if they get away from you

 

[namnhi]

Soak some PP seeds today. I have seen youtube videos that they were able to get fresh seeds from edible persimmon germinate in a couple weeks. Not sure if these old seeds can do that. I want to see if that is possible with these... without 90 days stratification. Our winter is mild so if they germinate in the next 3 or 4 weeks... I think I can protect them from the cold. Just curious what yall think? Is that possible with these older seeds?

Also I should have some pinus desiflora seeds that I can send to those that want to try.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yo! You are going persimmon crazy on me!

Stop for a moment and think about the plant. It is a semi-tropical. You don't need to soak the seeds or cold stratify anything... because the tree doesn't require it. In Houston, you could leave the seeds outside all winter in a ziplock bag with a paper towel moist in hydrogen peroxide, and they'd be mostly GTG come spring time

I have approximately 125 2 year-olds and 85 one year-olds. You just have to protect them from a deep freeze. Note I didn't say frost - I mean deep freeze (like 7 degrees in NC) which froze the roots on many of my p.persimmons.

 

[namnhi]

Yo! You are going persimmon crazy on me!

Stop for a moment and think about the plant. It is a semi-tropical. You don't need to soak the seeds or cold stratify anything... because the tree doesn't require it. In Houston, you could leave the seeds outside all winter in a ziplock bag with a paper towel moist in hydrogen peroxide, and they'd be mostly GTG come spring time

I have approximately 125 2 year-olds and 85 one year-olds. You just have to protect them from a deep freeze. Note I didn't say frost - I mean deep freeze (like 7 degrees in NC) which froze the roots on many of my p.persimmons.

Yes, Am a little crazy on PP at the moment. I would like to start focusing on a few species that will do well in TX heat. I have a love for JM but looking at them today... I give up. PP seems to struggle with the heat as well but they seem to bounce back much better than JM.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yes, Am a little crazy on PP at the moment. I would like to start focusing on a few species that will do well in TX heat. I have a love for JM but looking at them today... I give up. PP seems to struggle with the heat as well but they seem to bounce back much better than JM.

PP does not struggle with the heat or low humidity, IMHO. They loved conditions in SoCal... and then three years ago I moved them to NC and they did well until last winter and the big freeze in December. So I would say - heat and humidity tolerant... deep freeze not so much.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

What little I know, do not dry out persimmon seed while in storage or while stratifying. Seed needs to keep it's internal moisture. Too dry, seed will die.

American persimmon, Diospyros virginiana, needs about 8 to 12 weeks stratification. The American species is winter hardy into zone 5, though is most common in woods in zone 6b to 8b. Seedlings from trees in zone 6b southern Illinois have proven hardy in northern IL and Kenosha Wisconsin.

 

[19Mateo83]

Has anyone had any luck air layering persimmon, American or princess?

 

[namnhi]

Has anyone had any luck air layering persimmon, American or princess?

I have seen a fellow bnutter successful air layer PP. He did post some pictures in one of the PP post. Maybe you can search for it. I tried a couple with bonsai soil/turface as the airlayer medium. They on throw out one root... not a successful airlayer.

 

[ochong]

I tried an air layer this year, but last I checked it hadn’t produced roots.

 

[namnhi]

For my record, I soaked PP seeds and put them in zip locked bags. 3 bags that I only soaked for a couple hours and 3 that I soaked for 22 hours. The medium I used are paper towels, peat moss and sphagnum moss. I will monitor weekly to make sure they are not moldy as that was what happened to the seeds I tried a few years ago.

 

[ochong]

Looking forward to seeing the results!

 

[NaoTK]

I was going to start a separate thread on PP airlayering, but since we are all here...

The current status is PP airlayering is hit and miss. Some have success and most fail. But I am working on figuring out the keys.

Here are some I started in 2020. 3 years later and there are little to no roots. I kept it perfectly moist in either sphagnum or akadama and I kept it from freezing. They will callous and if you are lucky you might find a couple fat roots or a wispy root or two. I even tried removing the callous and a new callous will reform. Root hormones don't do anything. I've tried two kinds of liquid and the powders.



Earlier this spring I was fed up and cut some of them off before the buds broke. I kept one under a bench and the other I put in a plastic bag.



The one I left exposed leafed out and by June it was making new buds. I put it out in 100F full sun.


The one in the bag struggled to stay turgid and ultimately failed. Maybe the humid environment encouraged rapid leaf out leading to collapse.


I also separated some throughout the summer. Here is one I cut off in August. Notice is has no roots. I potted it up and it has been in morning sun for a month now and the leaves are still turgid. There are buds for next year. I will keep it from freezing and we will see if it leafs out next year. The point I am getting at is even if you don't get roots on PP, they can still be successful airlayers. This may just be what we have to do with PP.

This one below it's unclear if it has roots or not. Maybe the callous is absorbing moisture? Maybe it has lots of roots now that the layer is fully separated? I will find out next year

 

[Empty Mountain]

Dennis Vojtilla seems to have the best success propogating PP from root cuttings.

 

[NaoTK]

Dennis Vojtilla seems to have the best success propogating PP from root cuttings.

I would know, I own them all. But root cuttings are a different game, a much much easier game.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

What little I know, do not dry out persimmon seed while in storage or while stratifying. Seed needs to keep it's internal moisture. Too dry, seed will die.

Yes I keep the seed in the fruit until I am ready to plant. Then I clean off the pulp and make sure I keep them moist until they go into the ground.

Note - last year (with the bitter cold in December) I had a large bag of seeds and almost the entire bag did not germination this spring. I only got four seedlings, and a friend that I sent some seeds to only got a few. This was after years of getting very high germination rates while leaving the seeds outdoors all winter.

 

[namnhi]

I would know, I own them all. But root cuttings are a different game, a much much easier game.View attachment 510901

Nao,
I remember reading that you have successfully graft female branch to male. Success? Please give us an update. I have many male PP that I can try.
Am curious about grafting PP to other persimmon that grow much faster. Are you planning on trying that one day?