Sun light in winter

RONZOG

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Location
Mapleton, Iowa
USDA Zone
5A
Was wondering if Pines and Junipers need light in the winter when temps are freezing. I seem to read conflicting information. Some places say yes but if you shelter them in a shed or garage there isn't light in some cases. Winter in Iowa can get to -20 or colder so looking to put them in some kind of shelter but wondered about light.

Thanks for your help
 
Mine are covered in snow all winter. Some light gets through.
 
From what I understand based on lots of reading online and talking to old timers in the MN bonsai society, dormant evergreens don't need light, but it won't hurt them.

But, the caveat is that they really do need light when they come out of dormancy. So, once the shed is over 40F for more than a few days straight, the trees need to be evicted. This can result in more shuffling than you might desire in spring and fall. Your shed might be >40F, but your outdoors might get overnight lows that are dangerous.

On the other hand, if you can provide light you can keep the trees in shelter for longer.
 
From what I understand based on lots of reading online and talking to old timers in the MN bonsai society, dormant evergreens don't need light, but it won't hurt them.

But, the caveat is that they really do need light when they come out of dormancy. So, once the shed is over 40F for more than a few days straight, the trees need to be evicted. This can result in more shuffling than you might desire in spring and fall. Your shed might be >40F, but your outdoors might get overnight lows that are dangerous.

On the other hand, if you can provide light you can keep the trees in shelter for longer.
This is a good answer to the question.
If you can buy some lighting, you will save yourself a lot of effort. But it has to be really good light if you have a completely dark shelter, as you don't want to have your trees growing weakly from low light levels.
 
From what I understand based on lots of reading online and talking to old timers in the MN bonsai society, dormant evergreens don't need light, but it won't hurt them.

But, the caveat is that they really do need light when they come out of dormancy. So, once the shed is over 40F for more than a few days straight, the trees need to be evicted. This can result in more shuffling than you might desire in spring and fall. Your shed might be >40F, but your outdoors might get overnight lows that are dangerous.

On the other hand, if you can provide light you can keep the trees in shelter for longer.
This is a good answer to the question
Yes it is, EXCEPT that it applies only

after the species required bud chilling time has been accumulated.

For the last 3 weeks, the daily highs have been around 50F here. Night time lows have barely been below 40F, yet all my trees are still just sitting there, not doing a thing. I have stuff ranging from Mediterranean cork oaks and Chinese elms to alpine firs, pines, and spruces - 50F for 3 weeks and they are clearly still in dormancy. Acer palmatum and shirasawanum buds are only coloring up at this point.
 
As must be assumed in fact some times "bud chilling" time never happens in native areas(weather abberations). Trees still grow in spring when photoperiod/temp suitable. Personal trees never moved from summer place normally/always fully exposed. As mentioned some places trees buried all Winter like Krummholtz trees get little sun. By soil temp argument Bristlecone Pine SHOULD grow first down in warm valley yet is very last of ALL trees to start. All being said WHERE do Fall/ Winter growth rings come from if NOTHING going on inside tree? Is not all early Fall;)!
 
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old timers in the MN bonsai society,

Older than the folks Ryan was talking about...?

The MN folks who noted substantially better health after leaving trees on the ground in the light, rather than in dark sheds?

I have been looking for signs this winter....
I found these roots on thaw check, so they either grew before the freeze and lived thru it, during the freeze, or this much in a day..
20180127_163756.jpg

Either way, if grass can do it, I'll give my trees the chance too as well!

Sorce
 
The OP is in Iowa, the whole state experiences a ''real winter'' USDA zone 6, 5 or 4 depending on location. So Osoyoung's California scenario is unlikely, by the time the January & February thaws arrive, the trees are normally fully vernalized, ready to grow.

If you keep temperatures below 40 F, below 4 C, metabolism is so slow that if light were present, not much photosynthesis will occur. Mountain and extreme northern species such as some of the spruces, larches and a few others you actually need to keep temperatures below 36 F ( +2 C) to keep the trees fully dormant. Without light most healthy trees have plenty of stored carbohydrates to survive the dark spell. The problem is when your storage area warms up, and trees start to grow. Then the "In and Out dance'' begins, moving the tree into the sun for days above freezing and back into the shelter for nights below freezing.

As little as 24 to 48 hours above freezing will reduce the winter hardiness of a tree. For example blueberry flower buds, fully winterized, will survive -15 F (- 26 C) no problem. After 48 hours at 60 F (+16 C) they can be killed by 0 F (-18 C). From a study by MSU. This rapid loss of cold tolerance is shared by most species. This is why when the shelter hits 50 F for a day or two you need to do the dance to avoid frost or freezing the trees. The advantage of leaving trees outdoors, on the ground is that cold tolerance is lost at the same rate as the local native vegetation, which is usually slow enough to not have issues with late frosts.

However, I grow quite a number of trees from warmer climates, A zone 7 tree needs a winter chill, but won't survive my zone 5 winter, even if planted in the ground. So these are the trees I have to put in my unheated well house. I can usually hold them dormant for most of the winter. Problem is the ground thaws, warms up, usually 2 to 3 weeks before it is safe to start putting trees outdoors. My well house is ground temperature, so Japanese Maples and other warmer natured trees sprout a couple weeks early. These become my trees I have to shlepp in and out. I tried lights in the well house. It was a fail because the ceiling is low, the room is not a large volume of air, so lights bright enough to do any good warmed the well house up 10 or more degrees beyond ground temperature. Bad for the trees. So I keep them in the dark. Any trees that bud out and start growing, get ''schlepped'' in and out to get them sufficient light for growth.

Trees outdoors I don't have to worry about as much. There is wisdom in only growing trees that are native to your climate and or a climate that is a zone or two colder than your own. I have an anderson flat of eastern hemlocks that is spending its 3rd winter on top of my bench, right were it grew all summer. It looks fine.

Ryan Neil can be cavalier about leaving trees outdoors, he lives in Oregon, zone 7 or zone 8 - a very mild climate. Not hot, not cold.

Mike Frary lives in a beastly cold climate. He can't be cavalier. I live a couple hundred miles south of Mike, in a climate that is pretty similar to Vance Wood's area, though because I am so close to Lake Michigan, my spring is much cooler than people 3 miles west of me, and my autumn stays warmer, or at least frost free for nearly 4 weeks longer than people living 3 miles west of me. "Lake Effect'' is interesting. I've learned to rely on it, and it usually is reliable.
 
The OP is in Iowa, the whole state experiences a ''real winter'' USDA zone 6, 5 or 4 depending on location. So Osoyoung's California scenario is unlikely, by the time the January & February thaws arrive, the trees are normally fully vernalized, ready to grow.
Just a touch more detail:
As an example, Douglas fir buds are well known to have a 1750 hour minimum chilling requirement. In a location where daily high temperatures remain below 40F/5C this is accumulated in just 73 days, about 2.5 months. So, as you say, when the February thaws arrive, the trees are normally fully vernalized, ready to grow. This is also why David Crust has a perpetual spring panic - that plus a pattern of hard freezes occurring in March.
But, suppose that temperatures are only below 40F/5C at night or for just half of the day. Accumulation of 1750 hours then takes 146 days or close to 5 months! This is why Waerhauser's Modesto plantation failed back in the 1960s = the California scenario.
trees from warmer climates, A zone 7 tree needs a winter chill, but won't survive my zone 5 winter, even if planted in the ground.
Winter hardiness is an entirely different matter. Cold hardiness is about how effectively the tree can sugar up living tissues so that intacellular water doesn't freeze and puncture vital cellular membranes.

Hat tip to you, Leo.
Rarely do we disagree.
Rarely by much, when we do.
But the read/discussion is always worthwhile. ?
 
"Lake Effect'' is interesting. I've learned to rely on it, and it usually is reliable.

As a native from Illinois, I am very familiar with the concept :) Here in California, we have a very real and similar influence from proximity to the Pacific. When we moved here, the realtor told us - for every mile you are away from the ocean, expect your summer heat to be 1 degree warmer, and your winter cold to be 1 degree colder. This rule of thumb is pretty accurate for the first ten miles or so, at which point the prevailing wind direction (off the ocean = cool, off the desert = hot) has a greater impact. I live about 5 miles off the ocean - and it is amazing how temperate it can be just a little closer to the coast.
 
Just a touch more detail:
As an example, Douglas fir buds are well known to have a 1750 hour minimum chilling requirement. In a location where daily high temperatures remain below 40F/5C this is accumulated in just 73 days, about 2.5 months. So, as you say, when the February thaws arrive, the trees are normally fully vernalized, ready to grow. This is also why David Crust has a perpetual spring panic - that plus a pattern of hard freezes occurring in March.
But, suppose that temperatures are only below 40F/5C at night or for just half of the day. Accumulation of 1750 hours then takes 146 days or close to 5 months! This is why Waerhauser's Modesto plantation failed back in the 1960s = the California scenario.

Winter hardiness is an entirely different matter. Cold hardiness is about how effectively the tree can sugar up living tissues so that intacellular water doesn't freeze and puncture vital cellular membranes.

Hat tip to you, Leo.
Rarely do we disagree.
Rarely by much, when we do.
But the read/discussion is always worthwhile. ?

@Osoyoung -
I do enjoy our discussions, we rarely disagree,, and it indeed is always a good discussion. You have my respect and admiration. I always read your posts carefully. That is why I always try to be polite when we do disagree. And, sometimes after thought, I have found you correctly found the errors in my essays.

I fully accept the longer ''dormancy'' northern trees have in your warmer California environment. The phenomena is real, and is part of why apples are not grown in southern Florida, and other range restrictions for various trees.

I wonder if using the warm winter scenario could help us northern growers. I'm afraid it would be too complicated for a mixed species collection, and would require having chill requirement data for every tree we try to utilize the trick with. For example if I did not want my Douglass fir to come out of dormancy until after May 1, one could in autumn, bring the tree into a ''warm'' storage area, say about 50 F, which is above the winter vernalization temperature, then hold it there through to the second week of February (2.5 months before MAy 1) . Then move the tree to a cold area, below 40 F, and finish the vernalization process. Then, it will be ready to grow on May 1 when you bring it out. You will have avoided the sprouting too early syndrome.

If we had all the chill requirements available for each species, this might be able to be worked out. Alas, the chill requirements have only been documented for a handful of economically important crops, vast majority of trees and shrubs the chill requirements are only estimates at best, estimated from native range information, rather than actual test data.
 
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