Sub Alpine Fir Development Progress (collected spring 2017)

[Vance Wood]

That’s not too bad really, the firs here might be a little longer on average. But I have never seen one as bonsai in japan. (Worthy to be called bonsai anyway)
The species just isn’t used , one reason for this is the needle length .

You don't see a lot of good species in Japan as bonsai, that does not mean they are no good and should not be used. If there is one extremely conservative group of people in the world resistent to change from the outside it is the Japanese. Just talk to any one of the recent non Japanese apprentices, they'll tell you. You don't see the Mugo Pine in Japan, or the Pitch Pine, Lodge Pole Pine, Limbar Pine, or Bristle Cone Pine, just to name a few. Firs are not seen too often because they are different and seldom cultivated commercially. These trees are wonderful and in many ways better than some of the more commonly used trees in Japan.

 

[Djtommy]

You don't see a lot of good species in Japan as bonsai, that does not mean they are no good and should not be used. If there is one extremely conservative group of people in the world resistent to change from the outside it is the Japanese. Just talk to any one of the recent non Japanese apprentices, they'll tell you. You don't see the Mugo Pine in Japan, or the Pitch Pine, Lodge Pole Pine, Limbar Pine, or Bristle Cone Pine, just to name a few. Firs are not seen too often because they are different and seldom cultivated commercially. These trees are wonderful and in many ways better than some of the more commonly used trees in Japan.

Well, most of the trees you mentioned are not native here and hence not available for use.
There are some trees used that is quite unknown outside of japan though, fa, pinus pumila a creeping pine from the northern mountains. But with this one too, usually the foliage would be replaced by white pine, needles of pumila are rather long.

 

[Djtommy]

The Engleman has the very short needles but bluer in color than the Ezo.

Actually, from what I have seen here there is quite some difference within the picea gleghni aswell, needle length and color.
Some is more yellowish green and some more blueish green. Next to each other the difference is quite big.
This one is more blueish , next to it more yellow,

 

[River's Edge]

Actually, from what I have seen here there is quite some difference within the picea gleghni aswell, needle length and color.
Some is more yellowish green and some more blueish green. Next to each other the difference is quite big.
This one is more blueish , next to it more yellow,
View attachment 213776

The variation in color is common i believe. There is often difficulty determining the variety as well. Is it picea glenhi or Ezo? The other term is Sakhalin i believe. When i place my Engleman beside my Ezo the only discernible difference is the color variation in the needles. Careful observation will note a difference in the bark texture and color. We are fortunate to have a variety of species world wide that are suitable for Bonsai. Europe has some incredible native species as well. I am hoping that the knowledge i have gained from Japanese trained masters will adapt and transfer to the challenges of local species. I am blessed to live in a climatic zone similar to japan so i can play with traditional choices and local species as well.

 

[Waltron]

That’s a badass tree!

I think we have 2 kinds of fir tree in Michigan, one is the balsam, and the other looks similar to yours. I found one possibly worthy of collecting on the lake shore, but idk.Curious to see how yours does. I feel like I’ve seen a few threads of these not making it.

 

[River's Edge]

That’s a badass tree!

I think we have 2 kinds of fir tree in Michigan, one is the balsam, and the other looks similar to yours. I found one possibly worthy of collecting on the lake shore, but idk.Curious to see how yours does. I feel like I’ve seen a few threads of these not making it.

Collecting is specific to the variety and local conditions. Certainly not a sure thing by any means. My experience with firs has been very positive.

That’s a badass tree!

I think we have 2 kinds of fir tree in Michigan, one is the balsam, and the other looks similar to yours. I found one possibly worthy of collecting on the lake shore, but idk.Curious to see how yours does. I feel like I’ve seen a few threads of these not making it.

Thanks, i agree if you are not sure about the tree or the process then it is best not to try collecting that tree. I cannot speak for the type of firs in your area, Sub Alpine Fir are a very specific species from a very limited range, typically high mountain ( >4000 ft. ) and northern. We have several types of fir in the Pacific Northwest and most have been found to respond well to collecting at the right time of year. Aftercare is critical for moisture and humidity as well as preventative treatment for fungal and insect issues. The trickiest part is keeping them healthy while they recover. So not the easiest, and the normal attempts at good enough are usually not. Then again collecting success lies in the details of collection and aftercare for most species.

 

[Arcto]

Collecting is specific to the variety and local conditions. Certainly not a sure thing by any means. My experience with firs has been very positive.

Thanks, i agree if you are not sure about the tree or the process then it is best not to try collecting that tree. I cannot speak for the type of firs in your area, Sub Alpine Fir are a very specific species from a very limited range, typically high mountain ( >4000 ft. ) and northern. We have several types of fir in the Pacific Northwest and most have been found to respond well to collecting at the right time of year. Aftercare is critical for moisture and humidity as well as preventative treatment for fungal and insect issues. The trickiest part is keeping them healthy while they recover. So not the easiest, and the normal attempts at good enough are usually not. Then again collecting success lies in the details of collection and aftercare for most species.

Have you played around with Grand Fir or Pacific Silver? Hard to find decent material in lower elevations, but I have picked up some nice stuff up where there are heavy snow levels in the winter. My experience mirrors a lot of what you mentioned. I really try to stay proactive on Woolley Balsam Adelgids control. Biggest challenge I’ve noticed collecting Fir is their habit of throwing down a very large taproot. Usually means a larger heavy rootball is coming out with me. Definitely a genus that can be used more. Some really nice ones showing up at the Pacific nw exhibits. Great tree and thread.

 

[River's Edge]

Have you played around with Grand Fir or Pacific Silver? Hard to find decent material in lower elevations, but I have picked up some nice stuff up where there are heavy snow levels in the winter. My experience mirrors a lot of what you mentioned. I really try to stay proactive on Woolley Balsam Adelgids control. Biggest challenge I’ve noticed collecting Fir is their habit of throwing down a very large taproot. Usually means a larger heavy rootball is coming out with me. Definitely a genus that can be used more. Some really nice ones showing up at the Pacific nw exhibits. Great tree and thread.

Interesting you should ask. I collected one many years ago by a case of mistaken identity when i first started collecting! They are not a favorite of mine due to the foliage arrangement and the smooth bark for ever!
Your comments touch on important aspects of collection. Where is one likely to find trees worthy of collection that show signs of age and struggle? Generally in the most exposed sites, heavy snowfall, high winds etc. Also what are the characteristics of the species being collected. Which ones are collectable? That is a biggy! What type of sites lend themselves to collection? For high elevation trees i look for those in rock pockets ( shallower root balls) rather than rock cracks ( longer tap roots) I check each tree carefully around the circumference for real large roots. Best bets have two or three at most. If the tree shows no sign of movement initially when tested i usually pass it by, knowing it probably has a larger tap root and the pocket is not as shallow as i thought, perhaps it runs off in a crack below that i cannot see.
A lot of excellent trees are best left, i have often come home with one or none after lots of hiking,climbing and scrambling around. More often than not i stop the dig and carefully put the dirt back in place deciding the tree likely will not make it if i proceed.

 

[parhamr]

typically high mountain ( >4000 ft. )

I have a favorite collecting spot with this species at 3400' elevation

 

[River's Edge]

I have a favorite collecting spot with this species at 3400' elevation

That's simply not fair, you are much younger and fitter. Hopefully your hike in to that spot is a lot farther than mine.

 

[just.wing.it]

Wow!
Thanks for posting this tree.

 

[Djtommy]

Interesting you should ask. I collected one many years ago by a case of mistaken identity when i first started collecting! They are not a favorite of mine due to the foliage arrangement and the smooth bark for ever!
Your comments touch on important aspects of collection. Where is one likely to find trees worthy of collection that show signs of age and struggle? Generally in the most exposed sites, heavy snowfall, high winds etc. Also what are the characteristics of the species being collected. Which ones are collectable? That is a biggy! What type of sites lend themselves to collection? For high elevation trees i look for those in rock pockets ( shallower root balls) rather than rock cracks ( longer tap roots) I check each tree carefully around the circumference for real large roots. Best bets have two or three at most. If the tree shows no sign of movement initially when tested i usually pass it by, knowing it probably has a larger tap root and the pocket is not as shallow as i thought, perhaps it runs off in a crack below that i cannot see.
A lot of excellent trees are best left, i have often come home with one or none after lots of hiking,climbing and scrambling around. More often than not i stop the dig and carefully put the dirt back in place deciding the tree likely will not make it if i proceed.

When do you think it’s best to collec fir? Spring or late summer,fall? I found a pretty cool one a year ago and may have a try on it. Or just plan it over several years which I’ll probably will do. This one by the way. Only thing I did so far is cut that branch going straight up.

 

[River's Edge]

When do you think it’s best to collec fir? Spring or late summer,fall? I found a pretty cool one a year ago and may have a try on it. Or just plan it over several years which I’ll probably will do. This one by the way. Only thing I did so far is cut that branch going straight up.
View attachment 213885

Early spring before bud movement. I would not attempt something this size, it is outside my comfort zone. It has age and character but appears to be too large for my concept of Bonsai.
From a challenge perspective it appears to be a candidate for staged removal. Digging down in sections, applying fertiliser small amounts in the spring and fall. For something this size (It appears to be well over 30-40 cm in diameter at the base) i would likely plan over a two year period beginning in early spring before bud movement.Divide circumference into six pie shaped sections. Dig down at drip line in three alternating pie sections a trench 4-6 inches wide down to rock base, Cut and remove large roots encountered, fill that area back with native soil less rocks, dead roots and mix in small amount of fertilizer. Return in the first fall and apply small amounts of fertilizer between drip line and base of tree. Return in spring and dig the remaining three sections back filling as before with small amount of fertilizer mixed in. Return in the fall and fertilizer small amount between drip line and base. Return in the spring and complete the dig. Dig down just on the outside of the trench line all the way around and then undercut the root ball and sever any remaining tap roots. Call several friends, maneuver a heavy tarp under the root ball, tie tightly and secure the root ball. Lift,drag,carry, call more friends, lift drag carry, repeat.
PS: if the depth to the rock bed is over 18 inches then i would pass on the opportunity.

 

[Djtommy]

Early spring before bud movement. I would not attempt something this size, it is outside my comfort zone. It has age and character but appears to be too large for my concept of Bonsai.
From a challenge perspective it appears to be a candidate for staged removal. Digging down in sections, applying fertiliser small amounts in the spring and fall. For something this size (It appears to be well over 30-40 cm in diameter at the base) i would likely plan over a two year period beginning in early spring before bud movement.Divide circumference into six pie shaped sections. Dig down at drip line in three alternating pie sections a trench 4-6 inches wide down to rock base, Cut and remove large roots encountered, fill that area back with native soil less rocks, dead roots and mix in small amount of fertilizer. Return in the first fall and apply small amounts of fertilizer between drip line and base of tree. Return in spring and dig the remaining three sections back filling as before with small amount of fertilizer mixed in. Return in the fall and fertilizer small amount between drip line and base. Return in the spring and complete the dig. Dig down just on the outside of the trench line all the way around and then undercut the root ball and sever any remaining tap roots. Call several friends, maneuver a heavy tarp under the root ball, tie tightly and secure the root ball. Lift,drag,carry, call more friends, lift drag carry, repeat.
PS: if the depth to the rock bed is over 18 inches then i would pass on the opportunity.

Thanx, I’ll give it a try like that.
But it’s much smaller then you think though, less tall then the one what this thread is about. I don’t really have a good picture to see the size but the base was more closer to 20cm if I remember correctly . The size is really perfectly fine for bonsai.im sure I could carry it by myself.
It’s also moving when you push the top since it sits on a rock. I’ll start by cutting the biggest roots once and let it be.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanx, I’ll give it a try like that.
But it’s much smaller then you think though, less tall then the one what this thread is about. I don’t really have a good picture to see the size but the base was more closer to 20cm if I remember correctly . The size is really perfectly fine for bonsai.im sure I could carry it by myself.
It’s also moving when you push the top since it sits on a rock. I’ll start by cutting the biggest roots once and let it be.

That is much more doable then, the picture is deceiving! The base of the tree in this thread is 24 cm. The trunk and flare that encompasses the three trunks is presently below the surface of the pumice for the health of the roots in recovery. It will be exposed when the tree is next repotted in about two years.

 

[M. Frary]

I think we have 2 kinds of fir tree in Michigan, one is the balsam, and the other looks similar to yours

Frasier fir.
Needles come out like spruce not flat like balsam.
The needles are silvery blue on the underside.
Found in the same general area but frasier likes it a touch drier.
Never collected one.
Great Christmas trees though.

 

[River's Edge]

Update : The tree has had two seasons after collection to strengthen in the grow box. Today was the day to find out what has been going on after the collection. The outward signs are very positive with healthy branches and lots of buds on the branches and trunks.
First step was to remove the top row of the grow box and examine for roots. Found equal growth on all four sides, a very good sign,
Second step, remove from box and examine the bottom of the root ball. Another happy face, with lots of roots.
Third step was to determine any and all larger roots that could be reduced for the next pot which will be used for further development.
Fourth step was to move to the top for determining the amount of base to be exposed at this time and general planting angle. Initially the tree was potted deep obscuring the level that shows all three trunks coming from the same base and the natural basal flare.
Fifth step was to realize that some of the flare and base will be exposed next time and a bit larger pot is best for this go round during development. The pot chosen for this stage is 4 inches deep and 20 inches long with a width of 16 inches ( internal dimensions)
Tree repotted with layer of sphagnum to help retain moisture during recovery!
As the summer progresses i will slowly reduce the surface level to expose more base and flare in the back left in particular. For the time being the additional surface fine roots will aid in recovery..

 

[River's Edge]

I forgot to mention one step! Check your final placement more than once! When i went over the photos last night i realized that my planting angle was not the one i had intended, nor the best. I must admit this is not the first time this has happened and may not be the last! The practice of checking the photos afterwards seems to present it in better light than just viewing the tree in person sometimes. Maybe my eye is adjusting to what i expect to see rather than what is directly in front of me. Oh well, took it apart and fixed it this morning!
My concern in the previous planting angle was that the back trunk was hidden too much at the base not showing that it comes from the same base and that the largest trunk and left side trunk formed a rather static V shape. Not as pleasing to my eye! I think i found a better solution approximately 7-10 degrees rotating to the right. ( counter clockwise) and tipping the tree slightly back!
Please remember that this is just the first repotting into a training pot and the design deveopment process has not begun. So here are the results! New front view, as well as the sides and back.
Further notes on working with Sub Alpine Fir.
They bud back everywhere!
Roots appear easily off the trunk below ground. Suspect very easy to air layer!

 

[0soyoung]

When i went over the photos last night i realized that my planting angle was not the one i had intended, nor the best.

How strange, I've never have this problem .


.- too embarrassed doing the same, all too often.

 

[River's Edge]

How strange, I've never have this problem .


.- too embarrassed doing the same, all too often.

It is a bit of a running joke in the local bonsai support group, i actually have never met an experienced bonsai artist who does not suffer from this affliction. I have met a few who do not want to talk about it.