Styling advice - large nursery dwarf Scots pine

[Manbris]

Hi!

I struggled with styling this dwarf scots pine - nursery material. It has got 4 inch trunk but has a lot branches. Please advice on some potential styles would be suited for this tree and also possible branch selection ideas.

Any thoughts would be welcoming.

Thanks!

 

[Shibui]

No wonder you are struggling for ideas. This is common with landscape conifers. Commercial growers aim is to grow a bush as quick as possible, not to develop good bonsai. They don't do any pruning and only roughly shape the outer canopy. The less time they invest the better profit or cheaper they can supply these to buyers.
There are so many branches all close together that it's almost impossible to pick any good lines from the photos. I suspect you'll need to start thinning out before we can see anything useful or show it to someone in person where they can actually see where branches start and which direction the grow.
Always amuses me that beginners purchase this sort of material without any firm ideas for development then want others to solve the problem. Unfortunately, large landscape conifers look great but often have very little value as bonsai starting stock.

Some strategies to get started:
Check for nebari. Scrape down the trunk until you find decent roots growing from the trunk. This is a start on what trunk angle will work and which side might look better or worse.
Remove branches growing from inside trunk bends - unless that will result in large bare sections of trunk.
Remove longer branches/trunks with fewer side branches or branching way out on long stems. Retain, where possible, branches with healthy needles or side branches closer to the trunk. Hopefully it's easier to build something from those.

With branches this close together it is important not to remove too many close together at one go. Scars will interrupt sapflow up and down the trunk. Too many close together can cause parts of trunk and associated roots to die. Safer to cut 1 or 2 then leave some nearby to continue to draw sap then remove more after healing and sap flow adjustments have started - probably a year or so for pines?

 

[Manbris]

Thanks a lot Shibui. Really useful - I will thin it out gradually first. Is there a general rule of thumb that only 1/2 branches from the main trunk will remain in the end? So would it be sensible to find an angle from the base and then look for 2 good large branches coming out of the main trunk? Maybe do it in a few years and leave the roots untouched?

Sorry I went to several nurseries and it was a good deal I can find nowadays on pines near me. As pines take a long time to grow, thought was a good idea to start with a thick trunk?

 

[RoadManDenDron]

was a good idea to start with a thick trunk?

You're correct in a way, you can save a lot of time if you don't have to grow the trunk out,

If this were a deciduous tree it could be easy solved,

The problem with pines and conifers in general is the lack of back budding, which in this case is likely to take longer than growing a similar trunk would have taken!

Your foliage is simply too far from the trunk.

I would bare this in mind when branch selecting and favour any that might have foliage closer to the trunk too!

many of us have been where you're at! I highly recommend joining a club, or attending a few bonsai events such as shows.

It's a shame, there was a great show/sale in Doncaster which finished this year but would have been perfect! It was always great for picking up bargains too

it may seem more expensive at first but you will save yourself years of time by starting out with prebonsai material.

Similarly, mugo pines in nurseries tend to present more options in terms of bonsai styling and there is a lot of information on here from Vance Wood and a contest being carried out in his memory, if you insist on nursery material I would switch to mugo or maybe juniper (preferably sinensis)

 

[minkes]

If it is my tree, I would keep at first most of the branches. Aiming for use of only thinner ones in the future and on the strong shoots I suggest to remove all side branches and leave only top needles (this will be my sacrifice branches). Remove all old needles and provide as much sun as possible into that inner part for hope of backbudding. In the spring I recommend to repot to free draining soil (4-8 mm lava, pumice, ..). This will also allow you to examine nebari and possible fronts of the tree. No rush

 

[Shibui]

Is there a general rule of thumb that only 1/2 branches from the main trunk will remain in the end?

Having only a branch and the trunk at any point on the trunk is best. More branches growing close together means the trunk will swell at that point giving unsightly inverse taper and bulges.
I suspect that will be difficult to achieve with this trunk because there are just so many branches growing so close together down low. Removing back to just 1 branch there will leave almost nothing. Hopefully there's some possible creative design that can make use of more than 1 branch but I can't see it yet for all the branches.

thought was a good idea to start with a thick trunk?

Generally this is a good idea and you are not the first to make similar purchase but we need more than just a thick trunk for good bonsai.
Good bonsai also requires branches in scale with the trunk.
Also want good taper in trunk and branches (this one appears to have good taper in the trunk but with so many branches to remove that taper might just turn into ugly scars. then all the branches are long and straight with very little taper so don't match the trunk.)
Sometimes commercial landscape trees can be converted into good bonsai but the vast majority take more time and effort to convert than growing carefully from a smaller plant. Because pines do not back bud reliably or easily they are particularly difficult to convert.

 

[Manbris]

Hi guys, thanks for all your suggestions. I agree. I have done some more work- please see pics. Would this make the branch selection easier? probably have to go for an innovative style. Any suggestions/criticism are welcome! I will probably leave this tree alone for till spring.

 

[Paradox]

I think the first picture in the post above rotated a bit more clockwise might be a decent front.

It's really hard with these octopus branches to find a tree in there.

In any case, I would not cut any more off right now. You want to reduce those extra branches slowly over time.

I have a scots that had the octopus branches a bit further up than yours. I'll post some pictures later to show you how i handled it and what I did

 

[Paradox]

Here is my scots pine that I bought from a landscape nursery back in 2011.
It has a nice trunk that went up into what I call a set of "octopus" branches
I may have been slower in eliminating branches than what was necessary but I prefer to err on the conservative side so not to take too much and compromise the tree.
The tree also had a health issue in winter 2014-2015 that needed time to recover

As purchased



After repotting and cutting off a few of the branches in April 2012. Still lots of branches



2014 after cutting off a few more branches



2016 Cutting off branches (1 or 2 depending on how much foliage would be reduced) each year so not to kill too much at once



2018 Starting to see the tree I am aiming for on the right side



2019



2020 nice development on the future tree, nice pads and better definition



Vert with last branch to be cut gone

 

[Manbris]

Here is my scots pine that I bought from a landscape nursery back in 2011.
It has a nice trunk that went up into what I call a set of "octopus" branches
I may have been slower in eliminating branches than what was necessary but I prefer to err on the conservative side so not to take too much and compromise the tree.
The tree also had a health issue in winter 2014-2015 that needed time to recover

As purchased
View attachment 572043


After repotting and cutting off a few of the branches in April 2012. Still lots of branches
View attachment 572044


2014 after cutting off a few more branches
View attachment 572045


2016 Cutting off branches (1 or 2 depending on how much foliage would be reduced) each year so not to kill too much at once
View attachment 572046


2018 Starting to see the tree I am aiming for on the right side
View attachment 572048


2019
View attachment 572049


2020 nice development on the future tree, nice pads and better definition
View attachment 572050


Vert with last branch to be cut gone
View attachment 572051

This really is an inspiring development - feel it might take that long for me too. I actually enjoy the challenge. Have you thought about other styles?

What happened to the health of the tree- it seemed strong around 2012? also what happened in 2018 - roots looked a bit wet?

Finally would you take this type of nursery pines again?

Others have mentioned it would be quicker/more natural to develop it from a small plant. Does someone have similar- in terms of time it took -for Scots pine development stories to share?

 

[Paradox]

This really is an inspiring development - feel it might take that long for me too. I actually enjoy the challenge. Have you thought about other styles?

What happened to the health of the tree- it seemed strong around 2012? also what happened in 2018 - roots looked a bit wet?

Finally would you take this type of nursery pines again?

Others have mentioned it would be quicker/more natural to develop it from a small plant. Does someone have similar- in terms of time it took -for Scots pine development stories to share?

I looked at the different options the branches gave me.
The one I chose had the best movement and shape for a future tree.
Most of the others were pretty straight and wouldnt have been as nice in the end IMO.
The plan is to do some carving on the side where I cut all the branches

The tree was in my garage near the door and the soil froze solid for 3 weeks and somehow the needles got kinda freeze dried.
The tree recovered.
2018 shows some algae growing on the trunk so probably an indicator it was a bit wet (could have had a lot of rain that year that didnt help)but there was never really any problem for the tree.
I use a very open soil mix for pines and its really hard to overwater that.

If I found another tree that had a good branch that offered a good potential tree, sure.

I dont think it would be quicker to develop from a small plant. It takes time to grow a trunk that size.
A lot people in the US cut down larger trees and make bonsai out of them because they dont want to wait to grow a trunk
As far as natural, that depends on what you do with it in the end. You can make a "natural" looking tree whether you grow it from a seedling or cut down a larger tree.
The key is selecting one that will allow you do to that. That requires developing what we call an "eye" for the tree in the tree, which takes time to learn