STUMPED about branch placement.

[Michael_Marinelli]

Hi all.

I’m stumped about how to choose which branches to keep on this chinese elm tree (and really any tree in general). How do you choose which branches to keep vs cut off? How do I choose a 1st vs 2nd vs back branch and so on??

I’ve read that there are some guidelines to follow with informal upright, but the natural growth of many trees prevents perfect following of these guidelines. How do you guys work your way around this?

I’m trying to not make mistakes I’ll regret later on this tree. It’s pretty good material IMO.

First pic is front and second is back. (don’t mind my newbie wiring).

 

[Mikecheck123]

It's very helpful to make a virtual mockup of what you want the tree to look like.

Then keep the branches that get you there.

 

[Shibui]

First choice is branches at the outside of a curve.
Second is no opposite branches if possible.
Third is stagger branches around the trunk as you move up as best you can.
The rest is really just guess work and what looks good.

Starting with really basic stock can make it harder because there's so little to work with.
Sometimes the tree does not give us shoots in the places we really want them. That requires some knowledge and insight to break the 'rules' and still create something that looks attractive. There are also techniques to create branches where none exist (grafting, bending branch from another spot, etc) to get branches where you want them.
One great thing about bonsai is that if you find you don't like the results you can often start over as most trees sprout new shoots after pruning.

Do not be disappointed if your pre-bonsai looks sparse and open initially. Good bonsai are rarely created in one session. Branches take several years to ramify and thicken to look like real branches.
If you want good bonsai instantly you'll need to spend lots of money for a tree that someone else has spent many years developing.
If you want a cheap bonsai you'll need to allow for years of development.

In bonsai there are few short cuts. Bonsai takes time and good bonsai take much longer.

 

[sorce]

Not much you can do for selection from this point, seems trying to follow too many placement rules may have you offing too much life.

Though this may change rapidly in the coming weeks, so you may have to be diligent and begin identifying next moves now, for what will be more an excersize in controlling thicknesses.

I put a lot of value on keeping your low branches thick and thinning progressively up to the top.
This becomes the challenge with this material, especially if you end up with new trunk buds that are in good places, since any low ones will be much thinner and in need of proportionalizing.

I'd set a window, a timeframe, for how long you're willing to wait for better positioned branches off the trunk. If it's 3 years, you have to keep the current branching thin enough(but alive) for any new lower branches to overcome them, you could probably achieve balance (proportionalization) by about 6 years.

The further your timeframe, the larger the current branching will get, which puts your balancing finish even further out, which makes your tree better, but also greatly increases the detailed workload.

If you're deadset on more trunk branching, you'll want to create an event that will promote it, like allowing rather thick healthy high branches that can be fully lopped to activate trunk budding. Or graft.

If these branches are enough, which they may prove to be over time, you have to keep the top much thinner, but also just as straight and unforked as the thickening low branches, which means a lot of opposite work, stuff you're not supposed to do. Defoliation without cutting, cutting to activate one bud with no movement, removal of excess buds, in the top, to keep it thinner and without more interest than the bottom.

Seems you can safely cut those branches which are going straight up, especially the ones robbing energy from low wired design branches.

Sorce

 

[Michael_Marinelli]

Thank you Sorce and Shibui so much for the help.

I understand that bonsai is a long process that takes patience and time, but I’d like to start planning branches for this tree so I can get rid of the branches that are wasting energy. Chinese elms also grow pretty fast.

I have an idea of placement (as of right now) but I’m not quite sure what it will look like in the long run. So I’m asking the professionals here to critique my idea of branch placement based on how it will contribute to the tree in the long run. Tell me what you would do different (not necessarily what’s “right” or what follows the rules).

 

[Firstflush]

Shibuis number 2 is important. More explanation…no branches at say 3 and 6 o’clock (opposite like he said) if you are looking straight down upon three. It doesnt look right and causes inverse taper, especially if you have another branch really close just above or just below. When you get the growing of the tree really dialed in, it will take off. Inverse taper can then happened really quickly with so many branches so close….as in a few weeks.

 

[BrianBay9]

Shibui's guidance is always sound. The place you marked as "graft" is probably too low for your first branch. As a guideline, the first branch should be about one third of the total height. The first branch you've circled on the right looks about right, and it's on the outside of a gentle curve of the trunk. That one, or the one just above it on the right, might be a good choice to grow out for your first branch.

 

[Adair M]

First of all, you have to decide on what the basic style you want. Do you want a “pine tree” style, or do you want your elm tree to be an “elm tree” style. Elms are naturally broom style, and there are several ways to do that. The “left branch, right branch, back branch” thing is for making “pine tree” style trees.

There’s no right or wrong as to which style you go for, but once you commit to one, stick with it.

I see you’ve placed some wire, moving branches mire or less horizontal, which would be appropriate for the pine tree style.

 

[Michael_Marinelli]

First of all, you have to decide on what the basic style you want. Do you want a “pine tree” style, or do you want your elm tree to be an “elm tree” style. Elms are naturally broom style, and there are several ways to do that. The “left branch, right branch, back branch” thing is for making “pine tree” style trees.

There’s no right or wrong as to which style you go for, but once you commit to one, stick with it.

I see you’ve placed some wire, moving branches mire or less horizontal, which would be appropriate for the pine tree style.

I was planning on doing the pine tree style. No it’s not natural for this type of tree in nature, but I really like informal upright style and it’s much easier to achieve than the broom style.

 

[Shibui]

I also agree with @Adair M on trying to stick with more natural styles for tree species but it is your tree so will try to work on more classic informal upright styling for this one.

Agree that the 'graft' site is a little too low for a first branch though it would be possible to have a very full canopy if you really want to try. Initial styling when there is not much to work with it is tempting to fill all the spaces with branching. As the tree and branches develop that usually ends up way too crowded and whole branches need to be removed. Much easier and better to start with less branches and allow them to fill out the tree.
The lower right branch circled appears to come from the back of the tree. Not impossible as a side branch but also not really desirable. Try turning the whole tree clockwise and view from the front right corner of the pot. That should bring that first branch more to the side of the trunk and, fortunately, put other branching in better positions. I'm hoping you won't lose too much of the trunk movement but cannot tell from photos until we see it. If the big cut comes into view try slightly less turn. Design is often a compromise between all the best features while minimizing the faults.
The branch labelled back branch currently goes strongly to left side and is also opposite others. Turning the tree will move it more to a back branch position but that could also be done by bending with the wire it has now.

 

[Michael_Marinelli]

Okay, so here is the tree in better lighting:

As you can see, the bottom right branch does actually protrude from the side, not from the back. This angle of the tree provides for really good movement so I’m going to try to do anything I can to keep the front here. Also, that bigger branch to the lower left that I have wired actually does protrude from the back of the tree and could be used as a back branch. I had previously wired it to be to the left but upon further inspection the branch actually protrudes from the back.

I’m feeling like I could use the lowest right branch as my first branch and use that left back branch as my second branch and the left branch above it as the third branch?

 

[Adair M]

The type of broom I would suggest would look like this:



This is a “center line” broom. There’s a single trunk with lots of branches. There not the typical left, right, back formation.

 

[Shibui]

As you can see, the bottom right branch does actually protrude from the side, not from the back. This angle of the tree provides for really good movement so I’m going to try to do anything I can to keep the front here. Also, that bigger branch to the lower left that I have wired actually does protrude from the back of the tree and could be used as a back branch. I had previously wired it to be to the left but upon further inspection the branch actually protrudes from the back.

I’m feeling like I could use the lowest right branch as my first branch and use that left back branch as my second branch and the left branch above it as the third branch?

The new view shows the branch placement much better and Id be happy to go ahead with the branches you've selected.
I see you've omitted the larger wired branch on the right and that's a good move. Even though it is thicker now its placement is not good so better to replace sooner rather than later.
For now I would keep and wire both the lowest right branches. Grow and chop them for a year or so and see which one turns out better. Placement is so close it probably won't matter which you end up with.

Consider making the branch labelled as 4th into a new apex. Current apex moves further to the left after a lower left bend. A right bend there would make sense for informal upright and would also shorten the trunk marginally. With luck, after the chop to reduce the trunk there you'll get some more shoots from the base of 4th which might be good as another back branch. Current arrangement leaves the rear a bit open up there.

 

[Michael_Marinelli]

The new view shows the branch placement much better and Id be happy to go ahead with the branches you've selected.
I see you've omitted the larger wired branch on the right and that's a good move. Even though it is thicker now its placement is not good so better to replace sooner rather than later.
For now I would keep and wire both the lowest right branches. Grow and chop them for a year or so and see which one turns out better. Placement is so close it probably won't matter which you end up with.

Consider making the branch labelled as 4th into a new apex. Current apex moves further to the left after a lower left bend. A right bend there would make sense for informal upright and would also shorten the trunk marginally. With luck, after the chop to reduce the trunk there you'll get some more shoots from the base of 4th which might be good as another back branch. Current arrangement leaves the rear a bit open up there.

The issue I see with using that top right branch labeled as 4th as the new leader is that it would take out a lot of movement from the trunk. It would almost make the tree look straight. Even though a leader on the left does not follow traditional informal upright guidelines, if you visualize it in the future it may have much more movement than a leader to the right.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

If it were mine, I'd place it somewhere inconspicuous and see where it heads to.
Then I'd get a smaller elm to mess around with and try styling.

 

[Shibui]

The issue I see with using that top right branch labeled as 4th as the new leader is that it would take out a lot of movement from the trunk. It would almost make the tree look straight. Even though a leader on the left does not follow traditional informal upright guidelines, if you visualize it in the future it may have much more movement than a leader to the right.

Well spotted. I also considered this and it was a toss up between straightening the trunk with a move right or adding bends with the current move left.
More than happy with your choice and, particularly, with your reasoning.

 

[Leprous Garden]

Thank you Sorce and Shibui so much for the help.

I understand that bonsai is a long process that takes patience and time, but I’d like to start planning branches for this tree so I can get rid of the branches that are wasting energy. Chinese elms also grow pretty fast.

I have an idea of placement (as of right now) but I’m not quite sure what it will look like in the long run. So I’m asking the professionals here to critique my idea of branch placement based on how it will contribute to the tree in the long run. Tell me what you would do different (not necessarily what’s “right” or what follows the rules).
View attachment 434670

I don't know that I agree with your idea that branches that won't be part of the final design are "wasting energy". Every branch extends and produces leaves, which create energy for the plant. Plants know when to divest from branches that aren't efficiently photosynthesizing. The branches you have are all small; they could be removed in time without major cuts. Larger cuts removing more material can also stimulate further budding on the trunk, enabling placing branches more in the style you want. But letting the tree just grow means more energy created and more root growth etc.

The tree is better at balancing than you, though it may have its own style guide.