Strobus! Discuss.

MrFancyPlants

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My first attempt with a tripod taking pictures, so forgive the weird angle and hidden base. I was trying to capture the future potting angle. This will probably be repotted in the next year or two to fix the angle with the new design. The good news is I have tons of branches and buds near the trunk. The buds generally don't elongate until early summer, so no new growth yet.
 

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I am constantly amazed at how bad my photos turn out.. Really not a bad tree in person. Check the shadow in the second photo for a nice silhouette.
Please post other strobus and care tips.
 
Eastern White Pine are not commonly used for bonsai so information will be pretty sparse on them. That said, there are a couple/few people that have made bonsai out of them sucessfully. Not sure if any of them are on this forum.

Apparently needles dont reduce well, they have long internodes, dont bark up for a very long time among other things.

So you are kind of breaking newish ground with them.

Good luck
 
Strobus Discus

:DThats how I read this the first time and thought, 'Oh, there's a pine I haven't seen'. Laughed so hard I had to share.:D Old eyes play tricks

After reading my post and relizing how things translate over the web, I must clarify that I was not laughing at your tree! I cracked up when I saw it was a White and looked back to see the real title, Strobus! Discuss. Ok? Ok
 
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You are welcome to laugh at the disco tree but I am pleased with it's progress. It was a holiday tree when I bought it for 15 or 20, and had a green trunk. I worked my way down to one branch per node in a spiral. Well, the first step was hack and pond basket for a few years. Expanded shale, Great Lake sand and probably some dirt thrown in. It never really took off in the basket, but I was surprised when I discovered a fire ant nest while at a repotting workshop at the arboretum. Their workshop mix has lasted fine these last few years, but I think is is worth splurging for some akadama. I am tempted to go to the smaller of these pot choices, but I'd want to see some really strong growth this year first or it is back into a basket or flat. I think a summer or fall repotting would give it more time to store some energy. Containered life has whitened the trunk over the last eight or so years.
 

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Seems I can't post pictures at the moment. Don't know what's going on.
Anyway I have an eastern white pine I collected last year that has needles at an inch to an inch and a half long. It's picture is posted somewhere here on this forum. Probably in the pines. Haha. So the needles can be reduced. Going to try getting them shorter this year.
 
Strobus

Sorry I forgot the golden rule of not posting pictures sideways and rotated the phone camera away from the upper left. I believe it is a throwback to the view finder on the old chemical cameras.
Anyways, this guy is healthy if frustrating. Plenty of people warned me that thus wasn't the best stock to start with, but this is my first pine that I kept alive. I have since picked up a rescue cork JBP that I have high hopes for if I can nurse it out of the funk that I received it in, but I'll save the before photos until I have some after ones ready.
I am not sure exactly why I decided to move this one back into a pond basket, but it responded with smaller needles since it was repotted a bit late . At one point I wanted to see how fine I could get the ramification, but I guess now I am growing it out. I think I keep losing my direction with this tree because of it's naturally course growth. I'm not crazy about the current leader, so I was keeping the branch right below it in case I feel like starting over.
 

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I'd say you are doing very well with this tree. I look forward to seeing this one develop. The bark looks good for a eastern white pine.

I have one that I plucked (quite literally) out of an area of my yard I'm cleaning up. It was only after the fact that I decided to pot it up. It is still green but just barely hanging on. It will be interesting to see if it actually survives.

It is really a shame that these trees are so hard to work with as it is the most common pine in my area.
 
MrFancyPlants,

You stated it best: these are frustrating. It would be nice if they would cooperate, they just don't.

Personally, I would choose something else to work on. But, that's just me. I prefer to work on material that will respond to bonsai techniques.

This tree is like Southern Magnolia. Nothing you can do will reduce the foliage to scale.
 
Seems I can't post pictures at the moment. Don't know what's going on.
Anyway I have an eastern white pine I collected last year that has needles at an inch to an inch and a half long. It's picture is posted somewhere here on this forum. Probably in the pines. Haha. So the needles can be reduced. Going to try getting them shorter this year.

I'm very happy the stars have aligned and I was able to find this post and find your reply Mr. Frary. I have a eastern white pine, got it as a gift from the fiancee early april, and I have let it grow out all summer. Since then, all the old needles have dropped and all the new needles are now mature and i was able to spread the branches out a bit to make it look a little less cluttered. I've been trying to find a post about care and training methods, seems like this post kind of confirmed these are hard trees to train. However, you seem to know a secret! How do you reduce the needles? Care to share you secrets?
 
I'd be interested to see M. Frary's pine, too, if he wouldn't mind reposting and/or sharing his husbandry techniques, however I believe that his shorter needles were do to either genetic variation or perhaps adverse growing conditions(parasites or mineral deficiency) from where it was growing in the wild.
Please post a picture of your tree as well.
I do plan on keeping mine around despite it's challenges, since it is my longest living pine in captivity. My combination approach is to grow out the tree into a larger design so that the long needles are more to scale, and then to minimize the pot size to increase the ratio of internode to root capacity. If I had it to do over again I would have kept a portion of the straight top as sacrifice to thicken everything. But as is I may just let it escape from the pond basket into the ground for a few years and then try reducing again.
 
One can candle prune P. strobus just like a JBP to reduce the needle length (to about an inch long). Also, one can get fasciluar budding by cutting the shoot in the spring, just like any other pine.
 
I'd be interested to see M. Frary's pine, too, if he wouldn't mind reposting and/or sharing his husbandry techniques, however I believe that his shorter needles were do to either genetic variation or perhaps adverse growing conditions(parasites or mineral deficiency) from where it was growing in the wild.
Please post a picture of your tree as well.
I do plan on keeping mine around despite it's challenges, since it is my longest living pine in captivity. My combination approach is to grow out the tree into a larger design so that the long needles are more to scale, and then to minimize the pot size to increase the ratio of internode to root capacity. If I had it to do over again I would have kept a portion of the straight top as sacrifice to thicken everything. But as is I may just let it escape from the pond basket into the ground for a few years and then try reducing again.

I have been meaning to open a thread and ask my barrage of questions; however, I thought I'd not be lazy and just find the post and read up on it. However, I'm finding that it's harder to find anything so I think I too will post a picture of my tree. I'm literally a sponge right now for anything I can find out for this specimen.
 
One can candle prune P. strobus just like a JBP to reduce the needle length (to about an inch long). Also, one can get fasciluar budding by cutting the shoot in the spring, just like any other pine.

Is this based on experience? As far as I know eastern white pine is a single flush per year pine.
 
leaf reduction

as for reducing leaves (or needles) you are never going to reduce them to scale for any species. you can make them smaller but if they are truly to scale they would be tiny.

lets say you have a japanese maple 1/20 the size of a comparable ancient tree, what does 1/20 of a regular japanese maple leaf look like?the size of pencil eraser? smaller?

my point being, while i think smaller is better looking generally, true scale cant be done so it doesnt bother me to see slightly oversized foliage. and if more people would be flexible with this rule we would probably have more really interesting bonsai being made.

Im thinking about a smoke tree bonsai. Its leaves may not reduce down enough for some, but Im sure that I can make it look great in a bonsai pot. They are good vigorous plants , beautiful summer and fall foliage, great thread like flowers...

Anyway, good for you trying this pine. Plants that grow where you live are generally easier to care for. good luck.
 
Of course it is.



You were misinformed.
Sorry Osoyoung - I have to disagree with you, or at least add a caveat to you assertion that strobus can send 2 flushes of growth per year. You are in a mild climate, with a long frost free growing season and relatively mild winter. I believe that for you P. strobus can and does do 2 flushes of growth per year. For those of us in zone 6a, 5 and colder, P. strobus is a single flush. Though in my climate - zone 5b - I have observed a flush of new buds and growth if candles new candles are cut in half (leaving a couple rows of needle buds) in early-middle spring. I get no second flush of growth if candles are removed entirely, and no growth if candles are cut too late in the season. For northern growers it should be treated as a single flush of growth pine. At least that is my experience. I think climate is why we see differences. The original poster is in Virginia, so maybe mild enough, maybe not, they will have to test the matter themselves to know for sure. Safe way to go is treat it as single growth flush pine.

As to complete removal of candles, as in Japanese black pine technique, in my experience this often results in death of that branch. Sprouting of apical buds is unpredictable and often does not happen. Back budding of needle buds is irregular and can not be counted on reliably. Epicormic (buds on older wood) seldom happen and almost never happen where you want them. At least that is my experience. The oldest P. strobus I have has been in my care roughly 21 years. So I have a little experience. I'll show what I have as soon as I get out in the yard and take a picture or two.
 
Tried taking pictures, too much sun glare, picked up a too heavy pot - not my strobus, wrenched my back, so now I am sitting at the computer, with my lumbar pillow, waiting for the spasms to stop. So - its a good time to type a little.

Great things about Pinus strobus

1.) they are hardy into zone 3. My strobus are wintered by setting them on the ground, under the bench and then covering the bench with a tarp. No added protection from cold temperatures needed. My trees have survived real temperatures of -17 F without missing a beat. This is not a trivial matter - having trees able to survive the worst your weather can throw at it is a strong point in their favor.
2.) The roots survive being water logged without rotting for extended periods of time. (a month or two) We get wet spells now and then, though not every year, some of my more mountain origin pines have showed problems when we have a long wet rainy spring. For JWP I have to use a moderately coarse all inorganic media or the roots rot away on me in wet years. This year we had a stretch where it rained 5 out of 7 days a week for a couple months. This ability to survive water logging also means the strobus are much more forgiving of heavy, organic soil mixes. They will even tolerate conventional potting soil if you don't over water them. So even if your climate has less rain, this trait is a big advantage to using P. strobus.
3.) they have a unique look, the long soft needles seem to invite the viewer to 'pet' the tree. I often see visitors to my yard fondling the soft foliage of my strobus. This type of foliage should be planned for when creating a bonsai. Strobus will never look like a JWP in bonsai culture. But if you plan a graceful, almost willow like style for your strobus, you can really take advantage of the tree's natural characteristics.
4.) Strobus is more shade tolerant than any other pine commonly used for bonsai. It may be the most shade tolerant pine in cultivation, but on this I am not certain. It certainly does well in bright shade or dappled shade. In nature they can be found in very shady locations, usually as immature looking saplings, in the forest, waiting for a tree to fall and open a hole in the canopy. You never see mature looking strobus in deep shade, but often saplings are found in deep shade. In cultivation you won't loose branches due to shading out by higher up branches right away, you have time to 'sort the tree out'. This trait also allows people with shady gardens to grow a pine, where most pines would fail within a few years. If you have as little as a couple hours of direct sun, they should survive. Growth in shade is leggy, and soft, but the tree will persist. This is another plus, my garden has few full sun spots available. My strobus get less than 6 hours of direct sun a day and are growing satisfactorily for the species.

5.) they are as easy to wire as any other pine, often easier, as the needles tend to be at the ends of branches, so wiring is simple, the branches stay flexible for many years. They will hold a shape if the wire is left on long enough, it is simply a matter of re-wiring if they spring back when you remove the wire. Radical bends are tolerated well.

Down sides to Strobus as bonsai
these have been listed often by others, and are all largely true. One of the worst down sides is that it is almost impossible to get them to look like miniature versions of a 100 year old strobus in nature. Because of the long soft foliage, that is difficult to get the needles to reduce with, getting those nice horizontal branches with foliage arranged like a mature tree is really difficult. My oldest tree is one I set out to do the "Strobus in miniature" look, and I still view it as a failure in reaching that goal after 20 years.

The trunk stays smooth for the first 30 or 40 years of the tree's life. Getting the wonderful nearly black alligator checked bark of a mature 80+yr old tree in the wild just doesn't happen in a pot, without a similar amount of time passing while the tree is in a pot.

I could go on but others have covered the negatives well. I think it is essential to think about the lacy needles, and plan for and take advantage of them in the design. If you do that, you can create a great bonsai with P. strobus.

Here is my photo of a P. strobus, I believe originally collected by Marty Schmallenburg or Jim Doyle, styled by Jim Doyle, maybe tweaked or restyled by Walter Pall and then eventually donated by Jim Doyle to the permanent collection of the Chicago Botanic Garden. It is about 4 feet tall and is one of the few 'really good' bonsai I have seen done with P. strobus. The design does use the lacy needles to its advantage. If this trunk had short needles like a JWP it would look strange.
 

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Very insightful Leo, thanks for contributing. I agree that the soft foliage wants to be petted and I would like to incorporate a weeping form of some sort with the subject from the original post in this thread. I am leaning towards letting it escape into the ground from it's pond basket for a few years and then re-approaching.

And, great example that you posted.
 
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I believe that for you P. strobus can and does do 2 flushes of growth per year.

... I think climate is why we see differences.

Then it is indeed a two flush specie as I said - meaning it has that capability.

I agree about climate influences. The customary advice for P. thunbergii is to candle prune in late around 4 July or in late June. If I do that I mostly get nothing but buds. I must candle prune in May apparently because my climate is cool (i.e., it rarely gets much above 70F where I am). Nevertheless, none of this invalidates P. thunbergii being a two flush specie.

On the other hand, there are species that only produce one flush regardless of the climate in which they are grown. I believe P. ponderosa is an example.

But enough bickering ....


... I think it is essential to think about the lacy needles, and plan for and take advantage of them in the design. If you do that, you can create a great bonsai with P. strobus.

That's a very nice looking tree, Leo. Thanks for the photos and for weighing in on this discussion. You are the only person on any forum that has anything substantive to say about P. strobus. Thanks.


My interest in P. strobus is because I absolutely love the foliage - it is unequalled for its feminine beauty.

Let me just add that what I see to be the big challenge with P. strobus arises because the needles only last for 18 months (e.g., this year's needles will fall off next autumn). Consequently one must do something to induce fascular budding if the branches aren't going to just 'walk away'. Removinging about half of the foliated tip from each branch in spring is my favored way to treat it. This seems to be dependable, but it must be done before the summer solstice - in August and after, fascicular buds aren't even induced (then the branch is in danger!!!).
 
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