Species Study - Ulmus Davidiana var Japonica

[HorseloverFat]

These Specific Species Study Threads will serve for the documentation and discussion of growing young plants, upwards, together, towards a common “TinyTree” presentation goal.

This time 'round we are looking at "The Discovery Elm"...

I AM FASCINATED!!.

Here's the best site I found for general info.. but you have to click the tabs.

Discovery Elm (Ulmus davidiana 'Discovery') at Shelmerdine Garden Center

Find Discovery Elm (Ulmus davidiana 'Discovery') in Winnipeg Headingley Oak Bluff Manitoba MB at Shelmerdine Garden Center (Japanese Elm, David Elm)

search.shelmerdine.com

I located a very genetically desirable specimen as "Mother"..

I will be taking soft and semi-hardwood cuttings today..

I'm very excited about the implications of this Specie.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Well... the deed is done.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Question: Where did you get your source cuttings? Are they really from Ulmus davidiana? Morton Arboretum only has been distributing hybrids that are at most 50% U. davidiana, and some hybrids that are only 25% davidiana. Chicago Botanic Garden has exactly one specimen that is "pure" U. davidiana.

What I am saying is, this is a rare species in the USA. Where? or How? Did you find a tree with good provenance to get cuttings from?

I do want to be gentle, how do you know this is Ulmus davidiana?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Elms are very difficult to distinguish as amateurs. One literally has to count the number of veins on each side of the main leaf rib. Small differences in the winged samsaras of the seed can separate species. Some flower in spring, drop seed in autumn. Some flower in late summer and drop seed in spring. There are quite a number of tricky details that go into distinguishing one elm from another. I do not trust myself to key out elm species, other than to guess from what is known to be common in an area.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Question: Where did you get your source cuttings? Are they really from Ulmus davidiana? Morton Arboretum only has been distributing hybrids that are at most 50% U. davidiana, and some hybrids that are only 25% davidiana. Chicago Botanic Garden has exactly one specimen that is "pure" U. davidiana.

What I am saying is, this is a rare species in the USA. Where? or How? Did you find a tree with good provenance to get cuttings from?

I do want to be gentle, how do you know this is Ulmus davidiana?

I am familiar with Davidiana contrasts vs. American Elm.. as I studied them thoroughly when I attempted to plant many seeds. So I'm apt enough to somewhat KNOW Davidiana.

I Identified this as JAPONICA... because it is a family donated tree... from the Two Rivers Arboretum... The Plaque in front of the tree states the name.

THATS why I'm so excited!!!

 

[HorseloverFat]

I, Personally, besides more ROUNDED foliage (Davidianas are glossier than American), can't distinguish Discovery, from David's Elm....

...but the plaque can!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The plaque at the Two Rivers Arboretum can never be wrong, right? Hey, that is a "good enough" provenance for me. I'm surprised they let you take cuttings, but I used to get permission to take surplus orchids from a certain Conservatory way back in the day, which was good until administrations changed. So I don't need details. I assume the arboretum has its provenance and tagging correct. Relatively safe assumption.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The plaque at the Two Rivers Arboretum can never be wrong, right? Hey, that is a "good enough" provenance for me. I'm surprised they let you take cuttings, but I used to get permission to take surplus orchids from a certain Conservatory way back in the day, which was good until administrations changed. So I don't need details. I assume the arboretum has its provenance and tagging correct. Relatively safe assumption.

It was a fairly young tree on the "Public/city property" LINING the road the Arboretum is on.., I think It was City Planted... But the plaque on the CORNER.. says "Trees Sourced from "x" arboretum.." (The ACTUAL name escapes me)

And permission wasn't NECESSARILY obtained. (I know.. but I took only semi-hardwood).. but the workers SAW me leaving with cuttings...

...I am a SUPER confident, big-personalitied, REAL weird lookin' guy... and was talking "trees" with them the entire time...

Maybe they assumed I WORKED in forestry.. or didn't want to question the "crazy guy" about a lil fistful of cuttings.

The "Mother Tree" was YOUNG... I'd estimate 7-10 years old..

I could find very little information on them..

SUPER pumped to see more characteristics as they (if they) grow.

Still not 100 percent sure.. but I like Elms.. and it's AT LEAST, DEFINITELY Davidiana. We will just have to wait!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I really want to discourage taking trees without permission from publick parks. It is a bad example to set. Sure, the fist full you took probably didn't hurt, but what if another 100 Green Bay residents decided it was okay to do the same to the same tree. It would not take many to really harm the tree. You are not the only person in Green Bay.

You might laugh, but there is a prairie remnant near me that had only 100 or so Platanthera leucophaea and Cypripedium candidum orchids, over the course of a couple years a small handful of trowel wielding "self entitled" nuts, with excuses similar to yours completely expirated the Cypripedium and almost wiped out the Platanthera. It took 20 years and 3 reseeding efforts to bring back the Platanthera. We have not been able to re-establish the Cyp candidum.

Yes the infraction was minor, but the excuse is lame, and not condoned.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I really want to discourage taking trees without permission from publick parks. It is a bad example to set. Sure, the fist full you took probably didn't hurt, but what if another 100 Green Bay residents decided it was okay to do the same to the same tree. It would not take many to really harm the tree. You are not the only person in Green Bay.

You might laugh, but there is a prairie remnant near me that had only 100 or so Platanthera leucophaea and Cypripedium candidum orchids, over the course of a couple years a small handful of trowel wielding "self entitled" nuts, with excuses similar to yours completely expirated the Cypripedium and almost wiped out the Platanthera. It took 20 years and 3 reseeding efforts to bring back the Platanthera. We have not been able to re-establish the Cyp candidum.

Yes the infraction was minor, but the excuse is lame, and not condoned.

I whole-heartedly agree..

And ethically DIS-agree with my decision to do so.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Am I wrong or is this not the same tree avail at scheffields.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Those are The mother... the Variation is Japonica.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

You have me slightly confused . Looks like the original plant from Japan . Is the purest version . Like possible the Sheffield seeds . I was unaware that Canada experimented with this tree . Makes sense as the original is listed as zone 6 only the warmest parts up here . I get what @Leo in N E Illinois is getting at looks like a lot of work has been done in the USA . For same reasons . Instead of pilfering a few cuttings have you considered contacting the university of Wisconsin looks like they have done extensive research . They may be able to assist you in getting the pure form I assume that is what your after . If you want I can look at what was done in Canada but I do t think it will help you much . The work was most likely carried out by the experimental farm . Which is a goverment agency based here in Ottawa . With there main farm here . But it’s zone 4 here so they don’t have a zone 6 tree outside . And there is the border concern . I strongly suggest you ask the university

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Buddy I can relate to wanting to grow a rare tree or a rare cultivar . And as Leo had said embrace elms . So by all means dig some natives up . But if your going to grow elm from seed or cuttings . Grow Ulmas Parvifolia . Especially if you can find tree in a arboretum. For max cold hardy seeds . And if you can send me some there is good reason they are so heavily used . The tree is near perfect for bonsai

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sheffield's is a good ethical source for rare seed. I have noticed that Sheffield's sometimes relies on Wikipedia information for rare species. Hardiness might be listed as a certain zone but the reality can be a little more or a little less hardy. Often published hardiness ratings are simply guesses from where a tree's native habitat is. Which can be misleading.

For example Osage orange, Maclura pomifera, it's native range was small mostly in Texas, and would suggest it only hardy in zone 7, but it has been planted in all 48 contiguous states and has proven hardy through zone 4.

So view info on websites and catalogs as what is generally thought to be true, but there can be surprises and exceptions. Not everything written in Wikipedia is the result of years of research. Some is just educated guessing.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Slippery elm, aka red elm Ulmus rubrum, is native and good for bonsai. Very cold hardy, and somewhat shade tolerant.

Actually, if you can find American elm seedlings around Green Bay, they should be good. The Dutch elm disease is not a problem in a tree small enough to fit in a bonsai pot. Treating with fungicide is easy. Also the bark beetle that carries DED, usually does not attack elms less than 4 meters tall.

Siberian elm is immune to DED, has tiny leaves, incredible cold tolerance and drought tolerance, but will not tolerate growing in shade. It will drop branches on the side facing a building or a fence. It really needs full sun.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Slippery elm, aka red elm Ulmus rubrum, is native and good for bonsai. Very cold hardy, and somewhat shade tolerant.

Actually, if you can find American elm seedlings around Green Bay, they should be good. The Dutch elm disease is not a problem in a tree small enough to fit in a bonsai pot. Treating with fungicide is easy. Also the bark beetle that carries DED, usually does not attack elms less than 4 meters tall.

Siberian elm is immune to DED, has tiny leaves, incredible cold tolerance and drought tolerance, but will not tolerate growing in shade. It will drop branches on the side facing a building or a fence. It really needs full sun.

@Leo in N E Illinois Realistically if you were to develop a native elm like American or red . I’m thinking collected tree how much leaf reduction can you expect . In refinement also I have a Siberian on my property if I do a massive trunk chop when do you recommend time of year . I have no elm experience

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

With Siberian elms the Best time for trunk chops are Tuesday at 3 pm, any Tuesday. Just teasing. Siberian elm, Ulmus pumila, is incredibly hardy in north America. Usually chop middle of summer if you want shorter internodes and a weaker response. Chop in late winter or early spring for longer internodes and more vigorous response.

For the elm on your property, dig up and chop all on the same day in late winter. Get it out of the ground before it gets too large for bonsai. You don't need a lot of roots, they will survive.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

With Siberian elms the Best time for trunk chops are Tuesday at 3 pm, any Tuesday. Just teasing. Siberian elm, Ulmus pumila, is incredibly hardy in north America. Usually chop middle of summer if you want shorter internodes and a weaker response. Chop in late winter or early spring for longer internodes and more vigorous response.

For the elm on your property, dig up and chop all on the same day in late winter. Get it out of the ground before it gets too large for bonsai. You don't need a lot of roots, they will survive.

Thanks Leo normally I have Tuesday free to do tree stuff . Will have to make a decision it’s about 25 feet tall and 6 to 8 inch straight trunk . At back of garden and has to go before it becomes a problem . Biggest deal breaker is I have a fair bit if room but limited full sun . And plans for most of it

 

[Frozentreehugger]

As I said if work was. Done on these trees in Canada . Then it was done at the experimental farm . Which is ran but the government . The national arboretum is part of the farm . Which 100 years ago was on the fringe of Ottawa know it’s a park. In the middle of the city . Like I said I was fairly confident there might be a tree there .there is 2 the smaller one on the left in the pic and the main one . I did not see any evidence of seeds growing . The arboretum is interesting place sizeable park in a bit of a bowl in the landscape micro climate . Research says 1/2 a zone warmer than the city I was surprised this trip was not aware there was a JBP there it’s mature and the top 1/3 is dead don’t look healthy but it made it that far there is some impressive trees from all over there was cold hardiness testing done on a lot of species . There is apparently a bristle cone pine but I have not found it but lots of cool stuff rare crab apples biggest mugo I have ever seen multiple west coast trees