just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Aluminum!
Somehow I Screwed UP Annealing My Copper Wire
- Thread starter mrcasey
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Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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For years I was Aluminum only, then I joined a club and started taking trees to meetings and shows. Guess what? Trees got all bent out of shape, every jostle, bump and getting brushed against and the aluminum will keep on bending. I was brow beaten about copper, and finally after 3 years with Peter Tea, started feeling comfortable with copper. It is much, much easier to move around a tree wired with copper. It will stay put unless force is used. On trees where you need to leave wire on for multiple years, there is no substitute for copper. Pine, some junipers and other slow to accept a shape trees, copper is great. I still use aluminum for most of my deciduous, and especially for azalea, but any tree with thin, easily damaged bark you should use aluminum. Copper holds its shape better and has more bending power. Aluminum is overall easier to use, more forgiving for the newbie, and weaker bending power. Each has its place. Learn to use both if you have several types of trees.
Annealing copper. I usually have lots of scrap copper from other peoples electrical jobs. You want the dull cherry glow, if it glows bright red or brighter orange or yellow, you are into the range where it will get brittle - over cooked. With overcooked wire, you can try to heat it up again, hold it at a just barely glowing dull red. After a while maybe half an hour at this temp, take it off the fire and let it cool slowly without quenching. Sometime you can recover the elasticity you want by doing this. But keep it at dull red. Don't go hotter.
At the person commenting about annealing iron or steel. Copper responds differently. Different reaction, different crystal structure - what you know about steel won't help you with copper.
Quenching copper is not necessary. Quench too fast and you can cause it to get brittle, though generally even tossing it in snow won't cool most copper fast enough to make it brittle. Best if it is air cooled enough to loose the glow before quenching it in snow or water. Sometime the time it takes to lift it off the fire and turn around to drop it in the snow, is enough to cool it below the dull red glow, and then quenching won't change the softness of the annealed copper.
Annealing copper. I usually have lots of scrap copper from other peoples electrical jobs. You want the dull cherry glow, if it glows bright red or brighter orange or yellow, you are into the range where it will get brittle - over cooked. With overcooked wire, you can try to heat it up again, hold it at a just barely glowing dull red. After a while maybe half an hour at this temp, take it off the fire and let it cool slowly without quenching. Sometime you can recover the elasticity you want by doing this. But keep it at dull red. Don't go hotter.
At the person commenting about annealing iron or steel. Copper responds differently. Different reaction, different crystal structure - what you know about steel won't help you with copper.
Quenching copper is not necessary. Quench too fast and you can cause it to get brittle, though generally even tossing it in snow won't cool most copper fast enough to make it brittle. Best if it is air cooled enough to loose the glow before quenching it in snow or water. Sometime the time it takes to lift it off the fire and turn around to drop it in the snow, is enough to cool it below the dull red glow, and then quenching won't change the softness of the annealed copper.
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
I gotta get my hands on some good annealed copper, I guess...
See what all the hubbub is about.
I would say though, as an aluminum advocate, just use a larger gauge wire, it won't look that bad.
See what all the hubbub is about.
I would say though, as an aluminum advocate, just use a larger gauge wire, it won't look that bad.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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My 0.02...there's nothing wrong with using aluminum for everything, particularly if you're new. It's easier to apply and, therefore, easier to learn with, and it's cheaper and can be re-used sometimes. Still, copper is the better choice for conifers in general. I've wired out my larger rmjs multiple times with aluminum and have had to place the smaller branches back into position many times in between wiring. With copper, it's been wired out once 18 mo ago and nary a branch has moved since unless I wanted it to move.
As far as annealing your own wire, I'd want to know what good annealed wire is first so you can compare yours to it...better to buy it from the pros first, work with it for a while, then anneal your own and see how you did.
As far as annealing your own wire, I'd want to know what good annealed wire is first so you can compare yours to it...better to buy it from the pros first, work with it for a while, then anneal your own and see how you did.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
Uh...
Yeah... Bonsai is about how the TREE looks not how pretty the wire is.
Wire is a tool to bend branches to the shape I want them to be in, not a shiny decoration for my trees. I don't buy any other tools for their looks, why buy wire for the look? Besides that, the Al I buy is usually colored to look like copper or some darker metal so there really is little to no aesthetic difference even while it is on the tree.
I get that you feel there is some big difference, I just have yet to see, feel or be told anything that leads me to believe there is a great need to use Copper over Al. Different strokes for different folks.
Well, now, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think that wire IS part of the image of the tree that we make. The wire should be as unobtrusive as possible. Copper wire is thinner than aluminum. With some age, it darkens to a dull, non reflective brown that is about the same color as as bark of many trees. You can accelerate the aging of the wire by spraying it with a 10% lime sulfur solution. It will darken the wire immediately.
None of that happens with aluminum. It's painted. Which often wears off, and it turn silver. So it becomes MORE obvious with time. It's larger, too.
A good wire job is simple, minimal, and elegant. Why do we try not to cross wires? Simply because it makes the wire stick out more. Not because it has less holding power. It's aesthetics. It "looks better".
Have you taken a look at my tutorial on detail wiring, using fishhooks? You should. I mention there how we turn the last loop of wire backwards so that faces the trunk. Part of the reason is the cut end of the wire will be facing away from the viewer. Those cut ends are more reflective than the outside of annealed wire. Having them face away from the viewer makes them less noticeable. Aluminum is particularly bad about this. The outside is painted, but the cut ends are shiny silver!
The devil is in the details!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Very much agree and would have said same thing
. Personally add that best/special personal trees deserve best wire(Copper). Like nice jewelry for beloved mate
.Maybe...but....
Jesus Christ!
Sorce
Yes. Attention to detail.
I asked Owen Reich after he returned from studying in Japan, what struck him as different about the way we do bonsai in the US versus the way they do it in Japan.
He thought a moment, and replied:
"Attention to detail".
I happen to be lucky to own a tree that was most recently wired by Akio Kondo, a Kokofu-ten winner. It's time the wire came off, it's cutting in. I'm reluctant to do so, the wiring is beautiful. I mean, when you look at the tree, you don't even notice the wire. Unless you go looking for it. But then, when you get in, up and under the foliage, and you see the wire job... OMG!!! It's beautiful!
Kinda like looking at a Monet painting. From a distance, you see the painting. The scene. The subject. The colors. The light. But then, get up close, and see the texture of the paint on the canvas, the brush strokes, the irregularities of the colors mixed as he painted, broad strokes and narrow. There 's an entirely different way to look at the painting at the micro level... And then step back to see how the application of that technique works to create the artwork...
Wire is like that. It's not a tool. It's the paint.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I'm with you on that!
You know I appreciate a good wire job!
But I swear to god it took me longer to unwire the last one as it did to wire it!
I got mad respect for your patience!
Sorce
And it gets worse as the tree develops and ramifies!
Many times I've heard people say that they would never buy a "finished tree". That there's nothing to do. Well, that statement is a display of ignorance! Finished trees require a lot of effort to maintain their appearance.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Now that you say it....
It's quite the opposite!
Growing shit out is doing nothing.
I never have anything to do!
Pull weeds pull weeds!
Sorce
Cypress187
Masterpiece
I'm so happy I'm not a pro yet, all this (a)kneeling and burning copper in furnaces.
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You don't have to. There are two good suppliers of annealed copper wire: Jim Gremel, and Juluan Adams.
I prefer Gremel's but Julian's is good, too. For beginners, Julian offers a beginner set of a little of all sizes at a reasonable cost.
Gremel: www.jimgremel.com
Adams: www.adamsbonsai.com
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Cypress187
Masterpiece
Thanks for that man, but I will stick to the cheapest wire I can get until I get pro like u guys.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
I'm trying out some new copper wire that Jeremiah Lee pointed out on his recent blog post, will let you know if I like it or not.
i saw him using it last week. I was so busy, I forgot to ask him how he likes it. But I know he's used Gremmel's in the past, so if he likes this wire just as well, then it's good stuff.
armetisius
Chumono
Why all this blah-blah-blah?
It is not rocket science.
Build a good sized pile of pine needles;
throw your wire on top;
burn the pine needles;
pull wire out when the fire goes out
and
the wire has cooled to hand warm.
Has always seemed to work well enough for me.
Also lets me buy cheap from the recyclers.
It is not rocket science.
Build a good sized pile of pine needles;
throw your wire on top;
burn the pine needles;
pull wire out when the fire goes out
and
the wire has cooled to hand warm.
Has always seemed to work well enough for me.
Also lets me buy cheap from the recyclers.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
YukiShiro
Chumono
Copper does not temper at all due to the fact that carbon does not fit between the Cu molecules as it does in Fe, when quenching any ferrous metal with a carbon content the carbon gets stuck in between the contracting Fe molecules which makes the metal hard. so quenching Cu only re-structures the crystalline structure of the Cu molecules, making the copper wire more malleable. As copper is bent after being annealed it breaks up the crystalline structure and makes it less willing to bend; aka it work hardens, This work hardening is also the reason it holds its position so well; as Mr Adair described. the first tools and weapons where made of copper or bronze(copper alloy consisting mostly of copper and tin) and both types had to be beaten to break up the soft malleable structure to work harden them(make them useful).
to conclude, it does not have a very great effect if you quench the copper wire or let it cool more slowly, the detail is in the temperature and how many times the copper is brought up to the specific temperature or even sequentially lower temps each time for a certain amount of times, a kiln is perfect for this kind of temperature manipulation, then quench it to get rid of slag.
best regards
Herman
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