Small JBP "Kotobuki"

[jedge76]

I think I got a decent deal on this tree at $35. It definitely has a pretty nasty graft union bulge, but I think I may just use the bottom of that bulge as the soil line and base of the tree. Might be possible to scar that section in the future to hide the union. I am thinking shohin with this over time. I do see 4 branches coming out of the third or fourth whorl and may remove it later before it knuckles up. I see a much smaller tree and it will definitely take time, though a large pot and some calidama should help a lot. Any opinions? I really like the kotobuki foliage.

--Joe

 

[KennedyMarx]

I don't have much to add, I'd just like to see other responses. I am very wary of getting any material that is grafted because of bulges like the one in the base of this pine. I think that I would eliminate any of those spots where you have bar branching before it causes any problems.

 

[Eric Group]

That will be a tough bulge to hide!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

That's pretty high. I'd bury it and see if you get any roots higher up over the next 4-5 years. It can also provide some scions for grafting lower on JBP seedlings later on.

 

[garywood]

I think I got a decent deal on this tree at $35. It definitely has a pretty nasty graft union bulge, but I think I may just use the bottom of that bulge as the soil line and base of the tree. Might be possible to scar that section in the future to hide the union. I am thinking shohin with this over time. I do see 4 branches coming out of the third or fourth whorl and may remove it later before it knuckles up. I see a much smaller tree and it will definitely take time, though a large pot and some calidama should help a lot. Any opinions? I really like the kotobuki foliage.

--Joe

Joe, sometimes we become enamored with a particular cultivar and forget our purpose of growing is for bonsai. That's not always bad if you have confidence in your abilities to "correct" the problems that come with them. But, it is always better to select a tree without flaws and some flaws are more problematic than others. This one is probably the most challenging for beginners. Without knowing your expectations, there are two obvious approaches. Taking scions from the upper portion and grafting a couple below the current union. This will not yield results for at least 5 years. The tree probably needs at least that much growing anyway. The other would be grafting 1yr seedlings around the graft union. Plan your tree and if you knuckles, whorls or unsightly growth outside the silhouette don't worry about it. It will eventually be cut off. An example

 

[edprocoat]

I am not much good with pines at all but I will tell you what I can see about that particular pine besides the obvious graft problem. Fist thing is the odd way that it has grown a larger trunk above the first group of lower branches, that's some severe reverse taper that may be hard to overcome. The bar branching will be easier to "snip" in the bud though. I would ask some pine guys about grafting some roots on the bottom of that graft union making that swollen part the base would be a good start. Good luck with it.

ed

 

[jedge76]

Joe, sometimes we become enamored with a particular cultivar and forget our purpose of growing is for bonsai. That's not always bad if you have confidence in your abilities to "correct" the problems that come with them. But, it is always better to select a tree without flaws and some flaws are more problematic than others. This one is probably the most challenging for beginners. Without knowing your expectations, there are two obvious approaches. Taking scions from the upper portion and grafting a couple below the current union. This will not yield results for at least 5 years. The tree probably needs at least that much growing anyway. The other would be grafting 1yr seedlings around the graft union. Plan your tree and if you knuckles, whorls or unsightly growth outside the silhouette don't worry about it. It will eventually be cut off. An example

Thank you Gary for the advice. I think I may have overlooked that issue in favor of the kotobuki. I was looking for something with reasonable size that I could learn with and this seems an advanced technique. I'm not sure. I know the owner well and may try to return for a couple of JBP whips to grow and grow with.

 

[jedge76]

I am not much good with pines at all but I will tell you what I can see about that particular pine besides the obvious graft problem. Fist thing is the odd way that it has grown a larger trunk above the first group of lower branches, that's some severe reverse taper that may be hard to overcome. The bar branching will be easier to "snip" in the bud though. I would ask some pine guys about grafting some roots on the bottom of that graft union making that swollen part the base would be a good start. Good luck with it.

ed

Thank you Ed! That seems like the best solution--grafting to the base--we'll see if I stick with it or not.

That's pretty high. I'd bury it and see if you get any roots higher up over the next 4-5 years. It can also provide some scions for grafting lower on JBP seedlings later on.

Thanks Brian...like I mentioned, was looking for something to learn from in large part because I was interested in your online book. I have had a interest in pine for some time and looking after looking at the preview for the JBP book I was really interested. Thanks for that as well as the advice in this post.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I've got a couple kotobuki. I like them for their short thick needles. They tend to bark up pretty fast, at least for me, so it will be interesting to see this tree in a couple of years - particularly if you can push back some growth.

I also have several yatsufusa which I like even more Think kotobuki but with lighter green, softer needles.

 

[garywood]

I've got a couple kotobuki. I like them for their short thick needles. They tend to bark up pretty fast, at least for me, so it will be interesting to see this tree in a couple of years - particularly if you can push back some growth.

I also have several yatsufusa kotobuki which I like even more Think kotobuki but with lighter green, softer needles.

Nut, how does the proportion between bud size and shoot length compare between them. To me 'Kotobuki' has coarse buds compared to needle length and shoot diameter making them a little awkward in the finesse department.

 

[jedge76]

The one thing I did notice is that another grower who shares space at this nursery had 2 kotobuki in much larger containers with better draining soil and they were significantly larger. They were the same age, same wholesale nursery of origin but much bigger and the graft unions on those 2, at the same height as mine pictured, were much less noticeable. Maybe that's also a hope.

 

[bonsai barry]

If you want it as practice, then don't worry about the bulge. You can still practice wiring and repotting (if that's the experience level that you're at). However, the longer you own it, the more the bulge will bother you... especially if you're successful in training it into an otherwise respectable tree.

Perhaps it is just the photo, but it looks like it might not be at full health. Maybe your first experiment would be to increase the vigor of the tree.

 

[Neli]

It is still a young pine, and you might think of ground layering it, fully or partially, but make sure you leave a small portion of the original JBP stock bellow since you need its roots for stronger tree.

 

[Smoke]

I am quite amazed at the breadth of effort some of you would be willing to put fourth on a 30.00 tree with absolutly minimal bonsai potential.

Sometimes a 30.00 pine with a terrible graft wound is just a 30.00 pine with a terrible graft wound.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Nut, how does the proportion between bud size and shoot length compare between them. To me 'Kotobuki' has coarse buds compared to needle length and shoot diameter making them a little awkward in the finesse department.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. To me the needle length seems to be the major difference - it has all the strength and robustness of a typical JBP, but the needle length is much shorter. So that means that when you are promoting aggressive growth you can get big buds and long shoot length but still short needles. I think this is why kotobuki often look "leggy" because you see undeveloped stock with long branches and short needles and it "looks" like someone who let their JBP get away from them for a couple years and who is now cutting buds and promoting short needle length, when the truth may be that it is just standard long shoots... By the way when I say needle length is shorter that doesn't mean needle THICKNESS is. When you let this tree growth freely you get very thick, short needles. It is a very "stiff" and "prickly" pine to work.

If you look at the pine in this post, and think of it with long standard JBP needles, it would look "correct" for a standard nursery JBP with two full seasons of unrestricted growth. You can still see 2012 needles on it - so no one was doing any development.

[EDIT] It's raining here today, but I'll go try to find three examples of standard JBP, yatsufusa, and kotobuki, and line them up next to each other. They will all be at slightly different stages of development, so it may not be a perfect "apples to apples" comparison.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Looking through my files, here's a couple of quick pics.

First is kotobuki immediately after needle pruning / thinning.

Second is yatsufusa immediately PRIOR to needle pruning.

You can see how the kotobuki needle is short, and stiff. Yasufusa is much softer. You can see how kotobuki needle is straight. Yatsufusa is soft and can have slight curve and is bendable as you work the tree. Kotobuki when you work the tree feels like knitting needles Both varieties seem to throw more buds than standard JBP. Both have much shorter needles than standard JBP, but kotobuki is shortest.

 

[Poink88]

I am quite amazed at the breadth of effort some of you would be willing to put fourth on a 30.00 tree with absolutly minimal bonsai potential.

Sometimes a 30.00 pine with a terrible graft wound is just a 30.00 pine with a terrible graft wound.

True but that is human nature. Sometimes it is a step back but every now and then we get a leap forward from these seemingly "foolish efforts". It is how and why we keep progressing.

 

[subnet_rx]

Interesting, I have one just like this with a graft at about the same height that I bought about 5 years ago. Here are some pictures from the day I bought it. I'll have to post some tomorrow of what it looks like now. I had been meaning to post this tree to get some advice on where to go with the branching.

 

[jedge76]

Interesting, I have one just like this with a graft at about the same height that I bought about 5 years ago. Here are some pictures from the day I bought it. I'll have to post some tomorrow of what it looks like now. I had been meaning to post this tree to get some advice on where to go with the branching.

I would love to see a new photo. That is really similar to what I have, thanks for posting!

 

[jedge76]

I am quite amazed at the breadth of effort some of you would be willing to put fourth on a 30.00 tree with absolutly minimal bonsai potential.

Sometimes a 30.00 pine with a terrible graft wound is just a 30.00 pine with a terrible graft wound.

It's really just a group of people using their knowledge to try and help someone who is new at this.

I would say that I am quite amazed at the breadth of effort a group of strangers will go to try to help and educate another stranger with a $30 tree.