Should I attempt a soil change in early January ?

[Mike Corazzi]

Howdy,
This is my perennial problem child, my Sylvestris Scots pine.

I've tried WAY too much stuff and a LOT of it wrong when I was trying to do stuff without asking first.

Okay, this is what it looks like all over. It has looked like this for ALL of 2017.

It's the tree that I had my infamous HATE AKADAMA incident with. I've tried Vance's suggestion of no organic and regular fertilizing (pretty heavy in spring and summer) and here it sits potted in pure rock.
Lava. A ....smidge.... of cactus mix to approximate the pine mulch that Vance uses but I have no source for.

I'm sure it's at least....alive.

I tried antifungal to deal with those brown tips and well...they're still brown...
BUT.... no needles are DROPPING OFF. They've BEEN brown tipped all year, too.

The pic shows (poorly but they're there) new buds about to open but damn, the thing seems to be so sketchy.

IF... I repotted.....it would approximate a SLIP POT (I almost typed slop pot) as I would NOT do any work or messing around with roots.

I'd rather wait til some buds open but am wondering how much nutrient new buds would get from what appears to be a lousy soil to get nutrients FROM.

My ....instinct.... tells me that it could benefit from having a soil of lava bottom, pumice and SOME akadama and a smattering of some "soil soil." (that's a mix that our club SWEARS is sooper dooper miracle crap) and is available at the local dirt, rock, and glumps store.

Plan would be to lift the massive thing out of the pot, put in the coarse lava, mix up the pumice/aka/miracle stuff, and gently place the patient back in the same pot.

I am ASSUMING...that there has been no WILD ROOT GENERATION from what this ole thing has shown me.

So, lay it on me. What should I do? And when?



I'm including a pic of a branch NOW and a comparison pic of the whole tree so you can see some idea of the size.

 

[AlainK]

Hi Mike,

I had a look at the climate in Lincoln, California, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln,_California#Climate

It seems very hot and dry most of the year (at least compared to the regions in Europe where it naturally grows). Of course, when potted, you can control the amount of water it gets daily, but I think that unfortunately it can suffer from the heat. If Pinus sylvestris is called a "Scots pine" by "Anglos", it's because it grows profusely in a part of Great-Britain which is much less hot and much rainier: that might be the root of the problem.

What's more, one of the best features doesn't help: it's sitting on a rock that will keep the heat of the day during the night. It's like leaving it on a "plancha" after a barbecue...

It's a pity because it's a tree with a very nice potential. Where did you get it from?

Have you tried to add mycorrhizae to the soil? It's essential for a lot of pine species, and here, because of the much damper weather, the rootball is white with them when you repot them.

Anyway, here, I wouldn't repot it now. It's unusually mild now (night/day 5-11° C, 41-52 F), but it could go below zero (32 F) next week, so I wouldn't take the risk.

Here, the kind of mix I use is, about:

- 50% pozzolane (lava rock) 3-5 mm,
- 15% akadama (5 mm) - helps see when the soil is dry,
- 20% pumice (5 mm) - lighter than pozzolane,
- 15% composted pine bark : good for mycorhyzae. (or whatever you spell it )

If you can't get composted pine bark, you can crush larger pine barks used for mulching and let it decompose for a few months until you repot: in the spring, when buds are swelling.

My 2 €cents worth...

 

[River's Edge]

First, when did you last repot the tree? What type of repot did you perform. Bare root, 1/2 or 1/3 of the root ball. Is there remaining compacted soil in the center of the root ball? The answers to these questions all affect the outcome and the future plan of attack.
If the tree was weak, the roots were in poor condition then it could easily take more than one season to recover. Particularily in dry hot conditions.
A pure rock bonsai mix would require very attentive watering to ensure healthy roots. In Japan pines are field grown in rocky conditions. However Japan has a cooler, wetter, more humid climate than your area. There is nothing wrong with a variety of soil mix approaches as long as we adapt our care routines to suit the species requirements.
If a major repot was done last year then i would not do it again now or even this spring. I would focus on the proper routine of care to maintain the health of the plant.
Mycrohyzae will proliferate in many substances not just bark! My pumice beds are overrun with mycrohyzae naturally. But the proper environment is essential, temperature,humidity etc.
Akadama has natural properties to help retain moisture and nutrients for the tree's uptake, thus is beneficial in a mix.
I agree that it may be beneficial to switch the tree to a mix that retains more nutrients and moisture on a daily basis. However, i would only do so when the tree can withstand the change and in a progression that would alleviate too much stress at one time. So, i would suggest you adopt the approach to change out the conditions over a series of partial repottings.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

What is a "partial" repot?

It's been in the present soil for appx. 4 years as a guess. Maybe 3. The club "pine guy" ...SAID... it was needing more water.
I don't know if there's compacted soil in the roots because I haven't looked.
That's why I was curious about a ...sorta... slip pot.

I think waiting a month or so is a good idea, though.

My only thought was that the spring flush ..could... get a better boost from better soil.

I'm still grateful that it survived the spoiled akadama that it had to endure for a year.

Pictured here:

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Oh, also.... the tree isn't sitting on a rock. That rock was just kinda neat and it's just sitting on the "soil" and leaning against the trunk.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

If the soil drains well and you get enough water in the soil, there is no reason to repot a weak tree. Adjust watering to the needs of the tree. Start with weak organic fertilization when the growth elongates and moderate fertilization for the rest of the year. When it is hot and dry, don't fertilize too much. Think back to the one day your tree was too dry and that one day your tree stayed too wet, add to that the repotting and a possible strike of the sun...fungal issue... Repotting might not be the best option. I am not familiar with your climate, how successful is this species in your area? When extremely hot it might be good even for a pine to protect it from extremes when weak. What soil medium others use over there? Here akadama/pumice is fine. Keep in mind you have a rather shallow pot that will retain more water than anticipated with an organic component in it.

edit: when 3 years in the pot, the tree should be pushing itself up out of the pot. I should be full of roots. In that case you need to match your watering to the substrate or change substrate if you don't get there with the medium you have now. I hope for the best.

i would remove the rock. Under there it is or too dry or too wet.

 

[River's Edge]

What is a "partial" repot?

It's been in the present soil for appx. 4 years as a guess. Maybe 3. The club "pine guy" ...SAID... it was needing more water.
I don't know if there's compacted soil in the roots because I haven't looked.
That's why I was curious about a ...sorta... slip pot.

I think waiting a month or so is a good idea, though.

My only thought was that the spring flush ..could... get a better boost from better soil.

I'm still grateful that it survived the spoiled akadama that it had to endure for a year.

Pictured here:


View attachment 172883 View attachment 172884

A partial repot is when a portion of the rootball is dealt with rather than a full bare root approach. The most common is 50% or one side at a time with pines. Choose the side with the fewest roots and carefully comb out the old soil. Replace with the new mix, working it carefully between the roots. The next time you repot, the other side is done.
In some situations, it is adviseable to use a slower approach. This might involve excavating the center of the rootball from below to remove dead roots and compacted soil with limited work on the sides. Then the next time you repot doing one side, leaving the other half for the next repot. This is the approach i would reccomend for your situation unless you can get some assistance from an experienced Pine Guy and provide the aftercare needed for a more extensive repotting.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

The akadama HORROR pic is not new. The others are. But not the whole tree pic. It was happier in that one.
The NOW pic is the branch end. That's about 3 hours old.

 

[River's Edge]

The akadama HORROR pic is not new. The others are. But not the whole tree pic. It was happier in that one.
The NOW pic is the branch end. That's about 3 hours old.

Ok, so my last advice stands, the tree is very weak and if you are doing it then the slower approach is suggested. If you are nearby an experienced Pine Guy or professional then an emergency repot to better soil could be an option. But you would have to provide proper aftercare for moisture, humidity and sun. If it suits your budget i would use Clay King, the tree has the potential. I know it is readily available in California.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

For what it is worth, there's no such thing as a "gentle slip potting" even though we intend to be gentle, something always happens. I would get this tree into 100% pumice, then leave the roots alone for 3 to 5 years minimum. I would not do anything else until the year after all new needles came out normal.

Pumice is a very good media for establishing new roots and creating new root system.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

What I did today was take it to the little group of our club members that meets weekly for tree "help" with one of our best knowledgeable members.
He said do NOTHING. Let it be but fertilize it with the organic mild mild MILD stuff he mixes into all his soil.
Says it will never hurt anything. Has some potassium and magnesium and is fairly expensive but ...MILD.

THEN bring it back after the buds (there are a lot-and they are green) create needles if they are going to.

THEN we can decide what to do.

Also played around just twiddling and started using a spoon to gradually go into the corners of the pot and, to a distance of about 3" from the corners, filled those vacant hollows in that rock quarry with pumice, soil, akadama and a bit of lava WITH the fert mixed in the stuff. Figure it can't hurt since I didn't encounter any roots and ...IF... they just MIGHT try to seek someplace to go, at least there's some good stuff in the corner ...if they can make it to it.

Consensus was that it would make it through to needle break this year and then begin to be able to decide where to go from there.

 

[jeanluc83]

He said do NOTHING.

You keep using that word I do not think it means what you think it means.

Also played around just twiddling and started using a spoon to gradually go into the corners of the pot and, to a distance of about 3" from the corners

?

 

[Mike Corazzi]

To each his

You keep using that word I do not think it means what you think it means.



?

Well, goody.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

When there are no roots in the corners after 3 years in the pot there is something wrong with the medium, the watering or there is a disease like needle cast that must be treated. Be gentle with this tree...

 

[Vance Wood]

Mike Corazzi: You seem to have a misinterpretation of what I use as a soil mix. I use at least one third Pine bark mulch or as it is called commercially, garden compost, this is as organic as it gets. I have been using this stuff for many years with no problems. I use one part calcined clay, one part sand preferably #2 or #3 swimming pool filter sand or sand blasting sand,and one part red lava gravel. If I can find it I will throw in one part pumice and a hand full of charcoal. All of this works really well.



garden compost.

 

[sorce]

Forgive me, but everything going on here fixes a problem......

But there is a problem that created the one fixed by these suggestions that needs to be fixed before these suggestions actually fix what is truly going wrong.

@Mike Corazzi are you following the Free Mirai videos?
I ask because the base that Ryan lays to work off of....is a base that when followed...prevents the actual problems going on, and gives us the ability to understand our trees well enough ourselves, to not get into this....
"He said do Nothing...."
"He said use pumice"
"He said needle cast"

Conundrum.

Too much noise going on to hear what the tree has to say.

This should be simple.
Doing nothing is simple.
So I'm with that!

Sorce

 

[Potawatomi13]

Pumice is a very good media for establishing new roots and creating new root system.

Seconding absolute TRUTH! No clay crap any good no matter name! All turns to mud in time.

No repot until normal late Winter/early Spring time.

 

[Adair M]

Mike,

You live 30 minutes from Sacramento. One f the oldest bonsai clubs in the US is there.

I’m sure there is someone you can find to take some work shops or classes from there.

Find an instructor who does the kind of trees you like, but does them better than you could ever hope for yourself, and learn what they do, when they do what they do and how they do what they do!

 

[Mike Corazzi]

When there are no roots in the corners after 3 years in the pot there is something wrong with the medium, the watering or there is a disease like needle cast that must be treated. Be gentle with this tree...

Yes you are right. That's why I am working closely with the club "sensei" of trees. We looked at it very closely yesterday and what I am doing I am clearing with him. He is "pretty" ...sure... that it is going to pull through. He even advised the addition of some plugs as a "possible" good thing. I chose the corners because I am certain that no root development has occurred this past year and figured (correctly) that the corners would be the place LEAST likely to find any roots to wreck.

I do hope it pulls through. I also DO wish it weren't a SCOTS pine and the only reason I got it in the first place was when I was JUST "thinking" of bonsai and got it from an old nursery that sold willy-nilly stuff and is now out of business.

My mugo and JBP are having no problems.

When I got it I had no idea that there WERE different pines.

This "range" for Scots kinda shows why I ...may.... be having such a go-round with it.

Another insult was this past summer. Thinking to keep it in FULL SUN, the poor thing was in the middle of the yard with 112 degree "sun."

Yesterday we decided that this tree has to have afternoon shade here in the California Central Valley KILN !!!