Seedling Cutting Technique... for... Maples???

[Yamabudoudanshi]

Hi everyone,

I've recently taken a liking to these excellent species specific books for developing min (10cm and under) bonsai written by an author named Kyosuke Gun.

I've picked up his general tips and tricks book, as well as the Japanese maple and Satsuki books for cheap, and came across something in the maple book that I haden't seen before.

In these two pages, he outlines the early stages of development from seed, and incourages the use of the seedling technique almost exactly as it's often done with JBP. As you might expect, it's done for the same reasons. No tap root, super short internodes for the first few years of growth, and a more radial root base from the start.

On the second page, he outlines the same procedure, for not only individual trees, but tiny little clumps from fresh first year seedlings. - Oddly enough, I met a guy selling clumps just like this at a flea market in Kyoto a few months back, and I couldn't figure out how he did it. I could see the little bit of nylon thread at the base, but I assumed he had taken cuttings off of a more mature tree to make them. Now I know, that they were actually made like this.

After a quick search in Japanese, it would seem that this is relatively common practice.

I did not, however find anything in English, nor anything when I searched here on the forums, so I thought I would share.

Here's a few links: video, and another

I've got 300+ Japanese Maple seedlings popping up right now, so I'm planning on trying a few of these clumps myself. I might also try some individuals as well.
If any of you are interested, I'll keep a log of my progress on this thread.

Cheers!

 

[Canada Bonsai]

a more radial root base from the start

I've done it with Maples, Carpinus turcz., and Zelkova. It works. Personally, I prefer working with cuttings instead of seedlings or seedling-cuttings, primarily because of the predictability of the genetics. Even my 'standard green acer palmatum' is produced with cuttings. The potential for radial roots is the same in all 3 scenarios: cuttings, seedlings, and seedling-cuttings. It's not that important to have 360-degree roots on day 1. You can fix that over the first 2-3 repots no problem. I've taken seedlings and cuttings with 1 single root from 2019 and turn them into 360-degree roots by 2021. But also, as a hobbyist if you're propagating a good strategy is to create several hundred seedlings/cuttings and keep the top 15-25% and throw out the rest (or create kabuchi, forests, etc.)

super short internodes

I should say that I don't understand the need for 'short internodes' that early or that low, since that segment normally becomes part of the nebari. How far from the soil-line is the first branch or bend in the case of most Maples that have been in Kokufu? (link below)

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[Ohmy222]

I have done seedling cuttings on a lot of species. Oaks are the only ones I had that failed. The rest survived at probably 80-90% or so. I have done Korean Hornbeam, Japanese Maples, Tridents, Pines (Red and Black), Beech (European and Japanese), and Zelkova. Most, except for pines and Beech, I am growing for 'fun' or for grafts so it is not necessary. I just like to experiment. Also, probably not a big deal unless you want mame/shohin.

 

[SeanS]

You could just plant some seedlings through a washer and have perfectly fused clumps with radial nebari within 1 season

 

[Ohmy222]

You could just plant some seedlings through a washer and have perfectly fused clumps with radial nebari within 1 season

yeah, I just wrap them with wire or a pull tie.

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

I should say that I don't understand the need for 'short internodes' that early or that low, since that segment normally becomes part of the nebari. How far from the soil-line is the first branch or bend in the case of most Maples that have been in Kokufu? (link below)

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This book is specifically for mini (under 10 cm) bonsai, so having as many nodes as possible in each section of trunk is pretty important. I think in any other size, any of the other techniques mentioned are probably better.

 

[Ohmy222]

This book is specifically for mini (under 10 cm) bonsai, so having as many nodes as possible in each section of trunk is pretty important. I think in any other size, any of the other techniques mentioned are probably better.

Oddly enough I got the set of books from @Canada Bonsai. I have enjoyed so far despite the translation hurdles.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

This book is specifically for mini (under 10 cm) bonsai, so having as many nodes as possible in each section of trunk is pretty important. I think in any other size, any of the other techniques mentioned are probably better.

That makes sense and i conplet overlooked that it was a shohin book -- i was thinking about larger bonsai like you indicated

I still prefer cuttings over seedlings, but i see what you mean

 

[win320]

I have done seedling cuttings on a lot of species. Oaks are the only ones I had that failed. The rest survived at probably 80-90% or so. I have done Korean Hornbeam, Japanese Maples, Tridents, Pines (Red and Black), Beech (European and Japanese), and Zelkova. Most, except for pines and Beech, I am growing for 'fun' or for grafts so it is not necessary. I just like to experiment. Also, probably not a big deal unless you want mame/shohin.

That's brilliant info.
May I request a source of Japanese Beech seeds, I have been trying to find but so far no luck.

Thanks

 

[Ohmy222]

That's brilliant info.
May I request a source of Japanese Beech seeds, I have been trying to find but so far no luck.

Thanks

Sorry the guy I got them from in Japan retired. I only got like 75 one time. Stinks because it took so long to even find some.

 

[win320]

Sorry the guy I got them from in Japan retired. I only got like 75 one time. Stinks because it took so long to even find some.

I can understand, I believe Tissue Culture is the only option for propagation.

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

Put the first one of these seedling clumps together with 21? seedling today, and will continue making more of various sizes. Supposedly the best timing for these is as soon as a pair of true leaves have come out. I tried to follow the book directions as closely as possible, so we'll see what happens.

Here's what the process looks like for those who are interested. I'll post in anothing month or two with any successes and failures.

Enjoy.

 

[19Mateo83]

Put the first one of these seedling clumps together with 21? seedling today, and will continue making more of various sizes. Supposedly the best timing for these is as soon as a pair of true leaves have come out. I tried to follow the book directions as closely as possible, so we'll see what happens.

Here's what the process looks like for those who are interested. I'll post in anothing month or two with any successes and failures.

Enjoy.

I’m liking this book you have

 

[leatherback]

I should say that I don't understand the need for 'short internodes' that early or that low

One would be to have low branches early in development, to create more extreme taper in the trunk.

Your maple cuttings, hardwood? Or spring-growth?

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

One would be to have low branches early in development, to create more extreme taper in the trunk.

Your maple cuttings, hardwood? Or spring-growth?

Brand new seedlings.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

One would be to have low branches early in development, to create more extreme taper in the trunk.

Your maple cuttings, hardwood? Or spring-growth?

I appreciate your comment. I think this is an area where nuance is important, specifically because maple aesthetics and designs vary widely and so the need, function and purpose of low branches varies accordingly as does their timing in the development of the tree. Grafting (for different objectives) remains and extremely popular technique.

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To be clear, I'm not opposed to having tight internodes near the base and low bifurcation -- to the contrary, I go out of my way to specifically offer maples like this in Canada so that people have as many options available as possible (see below, Deshojo images), i.e. the goal is to offer extremely versatile material.

I take my Acer palmatum cuttings in May/June. When working with cuttings, in year 1 or 2 you generally cut back to the first internode to get a bifurcation down low (which can be used for different purposes). The important point for the present discussion is that the length of the cutting you take on day 1 determines the distance between your roots and first node. If I want "super short internodes" I can make that distance 0.25cm (1/8") to achieve that (see attached Deshojo 2 and Deshojo 5). I generally stay within the 3.8cm (1.5") range (see attached Deshojo 3 and Deshojo 4). Look at the nodes after the bifurcation -- how much tighter does one need them? Keep in mind that this is an area of the tree that is currently 1.3cm (0.5") in diameter, and which will thicken by a full order of magnitude or more.

Do seedling cuttings work? Sure, of course they do! But I don't think there is a need to go to the extent of using the extreme approach of seedling cuttings when propagating maples to create either a radial nebari or "super short internodes", 1) because this can be done more efficiently using other methods; and 2) we don't need the internodes any shorter than what those alternative methods can produce.

Seedling cuttings is just one method among many, which I think was the spirit of the original post anyways. However it's an inefficient approach with excessive ideals, and I suspect this is why the method is not popular as @Yamabudoudanshi pointed out

I would add that I personally find other approaches to shohin creation more interesting: consider the attached progression that I complied from bontarou_ichinokawa's instagram page, or Onuma's shohin maple creation described by Jonas here: https://bonsaitonight.com/2020/03/03/onumas-mini-bonsai-growing-techniques/

 

[SeanS]

Seedling cuttings started from seed last August, 8 months old. How’s that for low buds

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

So far so good.

I did the first one of about 22 seedlings on 3/18

The second one was about 18 seedlings on 3/21

The third today (3/28). About 27 seedlings

#1 and #3 I used rooting hormone. On the second one I didn't.

Both 1 and 2 haven't missed a beat. The leaves have continued growing and I'm starting to see signs of a second set in the first clump.

You'll see I'm keeping them damp and in a humid environment. The people who have high success rates all seem to do the water bottle top.

I'll post another update when/if I start seeing signs of roots.

I'm also going to try this technique with a tray of individual seedlings, once I have some more that are ready.

Cheers.

 

[Blakewharper]

That's brilliant info.
May I request a source of Japanese Beech seeds, I have been trying to find but so far no luck.

Thanks

Hey, I have had the same problem here in Canada….although, scanning the Vancouver street tree database (almost 40,000 catalogued trees) I found a couple streets that were planted with JB. Since I missed seed season, I’m hoping in the next couple weeks to get a couple stray saplings out of the boulevards before lawnmower season!

Maybe you can find some growing near you like that?!?!?

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

4/28 Update:

I ended up doing 5 clumps in total. The smallest is about 9 seedlings, and the largest is about 27.

I have roots! Lot's of roots. I just removed the humidity dome from the smallest and newest clumps and you'll see I even have roots above the soil line. A few seedlings in each clump have melted, but most are slowly growing.

Additionally, I dug up my big tray of remaining seedlings, and cut about 65% of them that were ready. The others, I re-buried in one half of the same tray.

As you can see, the seedlings I cut are doing well, and the ones I insulted by digging up and re-burying have almost all melted.

In case you're wondering about the mesh - It has 2 functions:
1) cuts UV rays a little bit. 2) Promotes low/natural bends in the seedlings without the worry about wire biting in.

I'm especially excited about the clumps, as I find myself more and more obsessed with pursuing these 'mini' sized (sub 10 cm) trees. I can't wait to see what a few more years in a tiny pot does for these.

Comments are welcome. I'd especially like to see others give this a try and share their results.

Cheers.