Seeded Siberian Elm - Now What?

[Frznrth]

Hi
I’ve always admired bonsai but have never grown one. My daughter gave me some seeds for Christmas. The Siberian Elm looks like it needs something done to it. Is such a young tree ready to transplant? Wire? Prune?

Leave the spruce trees alone until next summer?

I’m in Alberta. Should they be outside for the summer?

Eventually I’d like them all in separate “bonsai” style pots. No idea of what style(s) I’m going for.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Shibui]

Growing from seed is a great way to start bonsai but also the very slowest way. You'll be looking at 5-10 years minimum for the elm and way more for any cedar because they grow so much slower.

What to do next depends what your vision for your bonsai is.
Thin trunk stick in pot bonsai: start trimming and/or wiring to create shape. Trimming and keeping in smaller pots will definitely restrict trunk growth and trunk thickness.

Thicker trunk, more impressive, older looking bonsai: Grow trunks out in larger containers or in the ground for 3-10 years. Allow trunk and branches to grow long with lots of leaves for food. This speeds up trunk thickening. When trunk is good, chop then move to a few years of grow and chop to develop branches and taper in the main trunk. Finally move to more regular trimming to develop twigs and ramification then reduce roots to fit into a nice bonsai pot.

There is no single definitive way to produce a bonsai. Lots of possible paths that all work but slightly different. The above is just a very brief overview of the 2 main possibilities. The choice is yours.

 

[Frznrth]

Thanks for the reply. I’ll move the elm to a bonsai pot, start trimming and be very patient.

Thanks for the help.

 

[ponderingsage]

You can also use wire to shape the trunk. It is often easier when trees are younger and more flexible.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Thanks for the reply. I’ll move the elm to a bonsai pot, start trimming and be very patient.

Thanks for the help.

Don’t put it into a bonsai pot unless you want it to remain a thin stick in a pot. Folks new to this always want to create an instant bonsai by sticking it in a pot, but that just limits growth and keeps it small. Of course if you just want a mame or shohin sized tree then you’ll get one that way, but even then it won’t look like a bonsai. It takes years of growth and development to create a bonsai, and even longer to start from a seed.

 

[Frznrth]

Hi
What thickness of wire would I start with?

I’m thinking of a bonsai pot(s) just so I have something that will look ok in our kitchen bay window. This is the only place where they could fit.

I know they will likely never really look like true bonsai, but they are seeds from my daughter so they do have some meaning.

Will they survive inside in small pots in a sunny window in Alberta?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Gabler]

All bonsai trees should live outside. It is possible to keep tropical trees indoors in temperate climates, but they will be sickly compared to their outdoor counterparts, and they may die as a result of those conditions. I do not know what your hardiness zone is, since it's not listed in your profile, but elm and spruce trees are mostly pretty hardy, so they may not need protection in the winter. If they do need protection, an unheated garage is an ideal place to keep trees in the winter if your climate is too cold for your chosen species.

That said, the biggest winter killer, in my limited experience, is dryness, not cold. I offer no winter protection for my trees except to place the pots on the ground, but I have never lost a tree to a cold snap, only a dry spell. I water my trees in the winter if there has been no rain or snow for more than a week, and that has been sufficient to keep things from drying out too much.

 

[rockm]

Hi
What thickness of wire would I start with?

I’m thinking of a bonsai pot(s) just so I have something that will look ok in our kitchen bay window. This is the only place where they could fit.

I know they will likely never really look like true bonsai, but they are seeds from my daughter so they do have some meaning.

Will they survive inside in small pots in a sunny window in Alberta?

Thanks for the help.

You cannot grow an elm inside. It will die. Conditions inside a house are an extremely diffuse environment for any plant. Low humidity extremely low light levels no air circulation are all mostly obstacles that most trees can’t get over. They decline and die

Also Siberian elm requires a winter dormancy to remain healthy. No you can’t simply put it in the refrigerator come fall that will kill it too

This species is best grown outside in full sun. It is fully winter hardy—hence its name. It’s native to Siberia

If you grow it correctly it is certainly capable of being great bonsai. This species has been adapted for bonsai use for quite a while.

Ulmus pumila/Siberian Elm bonsai – Bonsai4Me

bonsai4me.com

 

[rockm]

People generally start this species as bonsai from larger trees collected from the wild. They’re easy to dig up and make into bonsai in a few years

Thread 'Siberian elm from a stump - BonsaiSouth-inspired'

Jun 21, 2018

I heard everybody say that:

1) Elms are amazing growers, and almost unkillable.
2) Therefore, perfect for beginners.

Siberian elms grow like weeds here, in the most incredible places (cracks in the pavement, gravel beds, etc). I collected this stump on May 5 of this year, which was probably a week too late according to the standard (the leaves were beginning to emerge). The tree was about 4-5' tall, clearly quite young but getting a lot of sun, not much competition.

It was pushing buds 5 days (?!) after collection, and leaves were emerging about 10 days later. It had a big push in late...

• Cosmos
• Replies: 27
• Forum: Elms

• 

 

[Gabler]

Also, when you move the trees outside, start in a shady spot, and then gradually introduce more sunlight over several weeks. Trees kept indoors are prone to sunburn if immediately moved outdoors into full sun.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Read this

Post in thread 'Why you cannot keep bonsai trees indoors'

Oct 30, 2024

Maybe it's not as impossible as we once thought?

Whenever I start one of these threads, I am careful to avoid saying things like "impossible". Instead I try to say things like "99.9% of all people"

I know for a fact that you can keep shallow water tropical reef corals in aquariums indoors. These corals are photosynthetic and require spectral lighting intensities much higher than any bonsai tree. However they also require very specific, isolated setups that often require an investment in the thousands of dollars.

Commercial plant growing setups are available for growing...

• Bonsai Nut

• 

 

[Frznrth]

Thanks for the replies.

My zone is 3 ish. It can get very cold in the winter. No potted anything would survive outside. If the elm is in a pot, is there anything I could do to keep it alive over the winter?

If the spruce trees are outside for the summer, can I put them in a sunny window for winter? Would they need extra light?

 

[WNC Bonsai]

They are hardy to zone 3–they are native to northern Russia, Mongolia, and yes Siberia. Keeping a tree in your sunny window will kill it unless you have no heat. They need a winter dormancy period and will not get it in your house!

 

[rockm]

Thanks for the replies.

My zone is 3 ish. It can get very cold in the winter. No potted anything would survive outside. If the elm is in a pot, is there anything I could do to keep it alive over the winter?

If the spruce trees are outside for the summer, can I put them in a sunny window for winter? Would they need extra light?

You have trees or shrubs around your house or woodlands?

Putting your location in your avatar would help us tremendously with providing info.

No bringing spruce trees inside for the winter is a death sentence. What happens to your Christmas tree in January? It’s a dried up fire hazard. May take until March but your spruce will be the crispy critters

Indoors is a very very hostile environment for any plant. There are only plants that can tolerate being kept inside. No plant evolved to live indoors. The species that can tolerate the indoor treatment are of tropical origin. Any temperate zone tree won’t last long

And BTW, ulmus pumila (Siberian elm) is hardy to zone 3. With some protection of the root zone it will probably be fine. There are other members here who live in cold zones using this species

 

[Frznrth]

Hi
I live in a small town an hour north of Calgary Alberta.

It seems like I’m off to the wrong start for bonsai. I’m fine with having something that lives outside in the summer but I really want something that looks good for the winter also in a window. Our summers are way too short.

Burying the elm pot in the winter outside so it doesn’t become a block of ice isn’t my idea of fun. I’ll put it in a window in my fairy cold basement to see what happens.

Yes Christmas trees get crispy inside but if they had roots and were misted daily???

Once my pots are empty I’ll try again with something more house friendly.

Thanks for the help.

 

[rockm]

Hi
I live in a small town an hour north of Calgary Alberta.

It seems like I’m off to the wrong start for bonsai. I’m fine with having something that lives outside in the summer but I really want something that looks good for the winter also in a window. Our summers are way too short.

Burying the elm pot in the winter outside so it doesn’t become a block of ice isn’t my idea of fun. I’ll put it in a window in my fairy cold basement to see what happens.

Yes Christmas trees get crispy inside but if they had roots and were misted daily???

Once my pots are empty I’ll try again with something more house friendly.

Thanks for the help.

we’ve given you advice based on decades of experience. What your planning will kill your tree. Unfortunately you can’t have it both ways. “Indoor” trees are a myth. Bonsai has no history of being kept indoors. They always been kept outdoors
The “indoor bonsai” myth began in the west where people assume bonsai are delicate exotic plants. Nothing is further from the truth. They’ve always been outdoor hardy trees rarely brought inside a house (except for one or two days in holidays or special occasions)

The only way you can have tree outside that moves inside for the winter and still looks good inside is to get a tropical species specimen like a ficus or schefflera. Tropical species don’t have chilling hour dormancy REQUIREMENTS to remain healthy. Temperate species have those and will die without fulfilling dormancy requirements

And yes a conifer brought inside and forced to deal with indoor heating systems which produce air with relative humidity that is the equivalent of desert air and extremely low light levels will die. Period.

Btw. Misting is mostly a silly thing to do with a tree. It does no good. And is only done on TV and the movies by people unfamiliar with bonsai

 

[Wulfskaar]

We usually get live Christmas trees each year. They are 6' Monterey pines. They are inside for 2-3 weeks decorated with lights and ornaments. They get water but only a small amount of ambient light. Because of this, we have about a 75% survival rate, which is pretty low considering it's only a couple weeks.

I don't think the Siberian Elm requires freezing temps to live, as my 4 are growing well. We rarely get to 39F and NEVER get to 32F.

Basically, it might work to put it in a cold basement window or garage after the leaves have fallen off. Trying that is better than giving up and letting it die by leaving it in a window all year. Otherwise, tropical trees as rockm said, or Portulacaria afra would be better for your window.

 

[rockm]

We usually get live Christmas trees each year. They are 6' Monterey pines. They are inside for 2-3 weeks decorated with lights and ornaments. They get water but only a small amount of ambient light. Because of this, we have about a 75% survival rate, which is pretty low considering it's only a couple weeks.

I don't think the Siberian Elm requires freezing temps to live, as my 4 are growing well. We rarely get to 39F and NEVER get to 32F.

Basically, it might work to put it in a cold basement window or garage after the leaves have fallen off. Trying that is better than giving up and letting it die by leaving it in a window all year. Otherwise, tropical trees as rockm said, or Portulacaria afra would be better for your window.

The problem with storing elms out of cold weather in enclosed environments with cold to above freezing temps is that they will break into new growth In the middle of winter. That means they will live inside in full leaf for months

That means they will produce long leggy weak growth with weak light with punishing central heat. Those conditions will weaken and eventually wear the tree out. Insect and fungal infestations will take hold because of that weakness. Final death Could take a couple of years with an elm or it could take only one winter of the owner starts trying to “cure” all the symptoms (mites, fungus etc) of being kept indoors.

 

[Wulfskaar]

The problem with storing elms out of cold weather in enclosed environments with cold to above freezing temps is that they will break into new growth In the middle of winter. That means they will live inside in full leaf for months

That means they will produce long leggy weak growth with weak light with punishing central heat. Those conditions will weaken and eventually wear the tree out. Insect and fungal infestations will take hold because of that weakness. Final death Could take a couple of years with an elm or it could take only one winter of the owner starts trying to “cure” all the symptoms (mites, fungus etc) of being kept indoors.

It must get just cold enough here, because the leaves change color in fall and fall off, then new growth begins in March. Mine have been through 2 "winters" so far with good results so far.

I thought if the OP can keep it outside until leaf fall, then put it in a basement window, that might be even colder than what I get here in the dead of winter. I grew up in the Midwest and we had basements. I remember the window wells in the basement being very cold. It's worth a try, since the OP doesn't want to bury the pot or mulch over it.

Maybe the OP should just plant it in the yard and let it be a full tree, as a lasting gift from his daughter that they grew from seed.

Either way, you're still right. He should look into something appropriate for what he wants, which is a tree in his kitchen window.

 

[rockm]

It must get just cold enough here, because the leaves change color in fall and fall off, then new growth begins in March. Mine have been through 2 "winters" so far with good results so far.

I thought if the OP can keep it outside until leaf fall, then put it in a basement window, that might be even colder than what I get here in the dead of winter. I grew up in the Midwest and we had basements. I remember the window wells in the basement being very cold. It's worth a try, since the OP doesn't want to bury the pot or mulch over it.

Maybe the OP should just plant it in the yard and let it be a full tree, as a lasting gift from his daughter that they grew from seed.

Either way, you're still right. He should look into something appropriate for what he wants, which is a tree in his kitchen window.

The issue is he can’t put it back outside until spring arrives. In zone 3 Calgary last frost is May 23. So freezing weather lasts well into May. Feb and March are the dead of winter