Scots pine nursery stock reduction

[apr]

Hi all

Some cheap Scots pine I have to practice with.

Main issues are all those branches from one whorl, leggy growth and foliage far from the trunk.

I think the best course is cut everything in red and have the new trunk line follow the yellow.

ill keep One sacrifice branch low on the trunk and possibly keep the big branch as a sacrifice branch?

What would be the best way to reduce this tree without stressing it too much ?

I am I correct in saying I don't want to take all the foliage off and leave just the new small leader with a small amount of needles ?

All constructive comments welcome !

thanks !

 

[Glaucus]

If you prune back a pine branch to zero needles, that branch will never grow.

I don't think this is good bonsai material. Your best shot is to reduce the main central trunk line to 1 leader. An the first grow node, where all the other side branches are coming from, to 2 or 3 other branches. And to put it in the field and grow it for 15 years. And almost each year, you grow. And you create 1 long almost entirely bald sacrificial leader, while trying to keep the side branches as compact and close to the trunk as possible, as that will be the final tree. And from there, you probably select a new sacrificial leader to create a second thinner section of the trunk.

Make sure it gets full sun because if it grows in the shade, it will be leggy and have long bald internodes with no backbudding.
If you collect from the forest, look for areas where they cleared out all the trees 2 or 3 years before. Any natural seedling growing near large trees will be bald just above the roots. But if it grows in an open field with full sun exposore, they will be compact and multibranched with many branch options.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

What would be the best way to reduce this tree without stressing it too much ?

With material like this, honestly, you can't. And I believe you shouldn't take the stress free option.
In general terms you have two choices:
1. Hope for back buds that might never come, have a stress free plant and maybe it will work and maybe it will not. This is the safest option if you hold your plant dear. It will probably bud on some of the bare wood, but that doesn't fix the straightness and the lack of taper that the trunk has right now.
2. Work with what you have and take a risky move that would force it to bud, at a high chance of losing it all.

Both options could result in you not wanting to own this pine anymore, either because the road is too long, or because it can never be what you want it to be.

There's another option that involves approach grafting the branches onto the plant itself, but that's a three year process and it's no guarantee of success.

What I would do is look inside the pot and see what the roots are doing. They are chunky, it's a tall pot, and you might be looking at more than a couple repotting operations to get them to work with you. This would firstly tell you what the game plan can become; if you find large and thick roots, reconsider growing a tree from seed. Because yeah, 5-6 years of growth would get you a similar sized plant. And if the work involved would take you 6 years to finish: repot in year one, in year three and year five. That would slow the whole process down. That is worth all of it, if you're dealing with prime material. With a ramrod straight pine, not so much. Material selection can be difficult and enthusiasm gets the best of me a lot of the times, I'm not judging but I would like to be an open book about the quality: it's not great.

If the roots look nice and there isn't a hidden trunk-sized bulge of wood in there, I want to propose two options:
Option A is to hack the tree back to that whorl of 8 branches, chop off 6 of them and screw a good woodscrew in there. Screw another one in the base of the plant and use wire to bowstring the trunk into a funky shape. Cutting hard like that, will yield you some buds most of the time; it's a scots pine, they respond dramatically when in good health and being chopped hard. I would leave two branches in case one gives up, and in summer remove the worst one.
Option B is to hack back to a nub just above the first branch, leave a centimeter or four. The bud formation will happen too, but now you have a pliable branch you can work with, at a nice angle too! If you don't touch the roots this year, it'll probably bud all over the place and in two to three years you wouldn't recognize it anymore.

Both A and B are risky operations and depending on the state of the plant, it might not get out of it alive. But design wise, it would "reset" this plant for you and give you a bunch of potential in 2027.
As you can see from the link I provided, I've been trying to do this myself a couple times and I have to admit that I like the fiddling and trying to make a marble out of a turd, but I also have to admit that I have trashed half of these project trees once I got an idea of the wait and care time involved and the potential outcomes being worth that investment.

 

[bwaynef]

Boon suggests starting from seed rather than starting with material like this. I have some started from seed and some trees not terribly dissimilar to this that were given to me. Truth be told, the gifts *might* end up having not been worth the effort, but I'm having a serious go with them.

With this material, if you're bent on keeping it, the first branch is the only one that will be a part of the final tree. Better to cut back to it now and start developing it. I'd go ahead and do that now. Wire the trunk line as well, though be ready to reduce it again after you get the backbudding almost sure to come. If the soil drains at all, it would be safer to leave it alone this year and repot in spring of '26. If you choose to repot it this year, you probably can't get away with as much as you'll be able to next spring.

 

[baron]

Imo it depends what you want to end up with?
We use these as starters for literati/bunjin trees. Wire with thick alu wire, double layer it, choose a line, clean out the whorls and leave one or two branches.

If you want a different style, you might need more taper and more time to let it develop.

 

[apr]

With material like this, honestly, you can't. And I believe you shouldn't take the stress free option.
In general terms you have two choices:
1. Hope for back buds that might never come, have a stress free plant and maybe it will work and maybe it will not. This is the safest option if you hold your plant dear. It will probably bud on some of the bare wood, but that doesn't fix the straightness and the lack of taper that the trunk has right now.
2. Work with what you have and take a risky move that would force it to bud, at a high chance of losing it all.

Both options could result in you not wanting to own this pine anymore, either because the road is too long, or because it can never be what you want it to be.

There's another option that involves approach grafting the branches onto the plant itself, but that's a three year process and it's no guarantee of success.

What I would do is look inside the pot and see what the roots are doing. They are chunky, it's a tall pot, and you might be looking at more than a couple repotting operations to get them to work with you. This would firstly tell you what the game plan can become; if you find large and thick roots, reconsider growing a tree from seed. Because yeah, 5-6 years of growth would get you a similar sized plant. And if the work involved would take you 6 years to finish: repot in year one, in year three and year five. That would slow the whole process down. That is worth all of it, if you're dealing with prime material. With a ramrod straight pine, not so much. Material selection can be difficult and enthusiasm gets the best of me a lot of the times, I'm not judging but I would like to be an open book about the quality: it's not great.

If the roots look nice and there isn't a hidden trunk-sized bulge of wood in there, I want to propose two options:
Option A is to hack the tree back to that whorl of 8 branches, chop off 6 of them and screw a good woodscrew in there. Screw another one in the base of the plant and use wire to bowstring the trunk into a funky shape. Cutting hard like that, will yield you some buds most of the time; it's a scots pine, they respond dramatically when in good health and being chopped hard. I would leave two branches in case one gives up, and in summer remove the worst one.
Option B is to hack back to a nub just above the first branch, leave a centimeter or four. The bud formation will happen too, but now you have a pliable branch you can work with, at a nice angle too! If you don't touch the roots this year, it'll probably bud all over the place and in two to three years you wouldn't recognize it anymore.

Both A and B are risky operations and depending on the state of the plant, it might not get out of it alive. But design wise, it would "reset" this plant for you and give you a bunch of potential in 2027.
As you can see from the link I provided, I've been trying to do this myself a couple times and I have to admit that I like the fiddling and trying to make a marble out of a turd, but I also have to admit that I have trashed half of these project trees once I got an idea of the wait and care time involved and the potential outcomes being worth that investment.

Honestly, it's just practice material I am happy losing it in the learning process.

Option B sounds good.

I figured it would be okay to do a big chop and have the new leader coming out the whorl, but I'm guessing that the first section of trunk doesn't have enough taper to be interesting? - hence leaving a few inches of trunk and developing the first branch as the new leader.

I know pines need foliage to stay alive - would the single branch that's left have enough foliage ? (Or is that where the risk of losing it comes from ?)

 

[Shibui]

I know pines need foliage to stay alive - would the single branch that's left have enough foliage ? (Or is that where the risk of losing it comes from ?)

Trees want to live. Reducing to just 1 or 2 small branches does carry a slight risk but much greater chance of it staying alive in which case all the roots will be feeding a small area and it should take off and grow strong come Spring.

There's a good chance that reducing the whorl down to just 1 or 2 branches won't look great. Pruning that way usually leaves a large wound which can then swell as the callus heals the wound.

Definitely treat it as a chance to learn about pines. If it does not turn out great you will still have learned a lot about how to deal with the species. In the meantime, start a few from seed as mentioned and/or look around for starter trees without the problems you've already identified in this one.

 

[AmellLeo]

Turning Scots pine nursery stock into a bonsai takes time. Keep a single leader and a few branches and it must get plenty of sun. Then it can be a COOL bonsai!

 

[apr]

Trees want to live. Reducing to just 1 or 2 small branches does carry a slight risk but much greater chance of it staying alive in which case all the roots will be feeding a small area and it should take off and grow strong come Spring.

There's a good chance that reducing the whorl down to just 1 or 2 branches won't look great. Pruning that way usually leaves a large wound which can then swell as the callus heals the wound.

Definitely treat it as a chance to learn about pines. If it does not turn out great you will still have learned a lot about how to deal with the species. In the meantime, start a few from seed as mentioned and/or look around for starter trees without the problems you've already identified in this one.

This is what I want to use it for, there's a few garden centres around me that sell these for about £10 so good for practicing.

I have a tray of JBP seeds waiting to germinate (hopefully). Not scots but I'll see if I can also get a tray of these on the go.

Any advice on the best time for big reductions?

 

[Shibui]

Any advice on the best time for big reductions?

I don't grow Scots pine but do have a number of other species.
It does not seem to matter when I do reduction on pines.
Early Spring reduction = quick regrowth and a full season to recover.
Late Spring/ Early summer reduction = immediate but less vigorous regrowth on multi flush pines. Single flush species may only produce new buds for the following Spring growth.
Late Summer/ Autumn reduction = possible delayed response. Most will develop new buds but will usually only open those buds in warmer climates. Most will wait until the following Spring to grow. Spring growth usually strong.
Winter reduction = Buds slowly develop but will be ready to grow strong in Spring.

From the above it doesn't make much difference to the tree when we prune but for us, as growers, a quick response is usually preferred so late Winter or Spring is a good time.
If your aim is to get right into short internodes and tighter ramification then late Spring pruning would help achieve your aims but that's usually only desirable where trees are already better developed.
If it's already later in the year when you get a pine then it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference pruning in Summer, Autumn or waiting until the following Spring.

 

[apr]

I don't grow Scots pine but do have a number of other species.
It does not seem to matter when I do reduction on pines.
Early Spring reduction = quick regrowth and a full season to recover.
Late Spring/ Early summer reduction = immediate but less vigorous regrowth on multi flush pines. Single flush species may only produce new buds for the following Spring growth.
Late Summer/ Autumn reduction = possible delayed response. Most will develop new buds but will usually only open those buds in warmer climates. Most will wait until the following Spring to grow. Spring growth usually strong.
Winter reduction = Buds slowly develop but will be ready to grow strong in Spring.

From the above it doesn't make much difference to the tree when we prune but for us, as growers, a quick response is usually preferred so late Winter or Spring is a good time.
If your aim is to get right into short internodes and tighter ramification then late Spring pruning would help achieve your aims but that's usually only desirable where trees are already better developed.
If it's already later in the year when you get a pine then it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference pruning in Summer, Autumn or waiting until the following Spring.

I'm just now thinking, if the first low branch will be the new leader, would it be possible to leave the rest of the tree as one big sacrifice branch ?

I think I'm right in saying that if you don't pluck needles/have too much energy in the apex that the tree won't devote as much energy to the low branches and it may die/remain weak.

I'm just thinking out loud but the big chop would slow the growth, but would mean the tree then likely back bud and put all the energy into the new leader - which is ultimately what is needed to create anything even remotely interesting (I think I have talked myself into chopping it this weekend).

 

[leatherback]

I'm just now thinking, if the first low branch will be the new leader, would it be possible to leave the rest of the tree as one big sacrifice branch ?

Yes. BUT.. Consider bending the main trunk down, to below the low branches you want to keep.

If you reduce the tree, I would allow it to flush this spring, and just grow till mid-summer. Then do your pruning. This will give you a boost in strength and may aid in some lower budding. Buds on the trunnk and branches are still very possible with young stock, if reduced from a position of extreme strength.

 

[JeffS73]

I have grafted onto Scots Pine, cut the top off a month later and had it bud at the whorl site (above the graft). Scots are tough. But honestly, go looking in the right places and you can find much better material.

For example (in the UK) last year I was selling larch, JBP, Scots and lacebark for £15, 4 years old, seedling cut and with multiple low shoots. Now I'm a bit too lazy to post for that sort of money, but you can find this sort of material easily at any UK bonsai show.