Scots pine? advise needed

[linlaoboo]

Hi gurus,

This is my 1st pine that survived after field grown for 4 years and potting it last summer. Barry gave me a few years ago and said they r Scots pines but I'm not so sure since their needles can be very stiff that they hurt my skin every time trying to prune them. I just finished chopping the top off, decandled and did the 1st wiring. I wonder what should be done to increase its chance of survival? If it survives what can be done to improve it? IT suffers from not having enough staggered branches they all seem to come from the same 2 locations on the trunk and the lack of trunk taper between the lower level and the higher level are my concerns.

 

[plant_dr]

You can get new branches between the whorls by approach grafting. It would jave been easier to do before you chopped most of the branches off, using an existing branch bent back to the trunk. The other way is to use a seedling tree in a small pot fastened to the trunk. These techniques should only be done after the tree has recovered from this cutback and seems healthy enough to proceed with further training though. At this point your main concern is the health of the tree.

 

[Paulpash]

I'd crank up that strong right branch and make a short powerful tree from the lower branches. The telegraph pole above doesn't really blow my skirt up. I'd leave it now to fill out / recover then remove the top a year or two down the road when that side branch is substantial in terms of foliage mass.

 

[linlaoboo]

You can get new branches between the whorls by approach grafting. It would jave been easier to do before you chopped most of the branches off, using an existing branch bent back to the trunk. The other way is to use a seedling tree in a small pot fastened to the trunk. These techniques should only be done after the tree has recovered from this cutback and seems healthy enough to proceed with further training though. At this point your main concern is the health of the tree.

Good idea I've done tons of grafts on ficuses. Didnt consider doing it. Thank you.

 

[linlaoboo]

Oh ta. I did consider as you said. Another option is to let one of the primary branches up top elongate and bend it down to cover the bare sections. Well will see.

Sithee.

I'd crank up that strong right branch and make a short powerful tree from the lower branches. The telegraph pole above doesn't really blow my skirt up. I'd leave it now to fill out / recover then remove the top a year or two down the road when that side branch is substantial in terms of foliage mass.

 

[Ryceman3]

I like the way that @Paulpash is thinking. I guess grafting could work but in the end I feel even if it was succesful you would end up with some grafted branching on a trunk that is still long and taperless (in that middle section). The lower section has plenty of movement and interest ... I'd look to concentrate my efforts there, heaps of potential!

 

[plant_dr]

I'd crank up that strong right branch and make a short powerful tree from the lower branches. The telegraph pole above doesn't really blow my skirt up. I'd leave it now to fill out / recover then remove the top a year or two down the road when that side branch is substantial in terms of foliage mass.

I like this idea. Even with grafting new branches in the right spots, there's not much you can do in a reasonable amount of time to fix the taper on that middle section.

 

[Paulpash]

Please let it recover first though - always keep it hairy in the development stage, retaining 'useless' branches in the short term to maintain vigour & keep it's engine firing strongly. The only caveat to this advice is don't let these branches shade your 'keepers'. It's too late now but keep at least twice this foliage mass to keep it happy going forward if you're aiming for a mid sized tree.

Using the lower section will avoid the hassle of grafting, compact the tree, give taper & movement to your bonsai. Plus it allows you to grow it to completion - thus giving you full control over branch placement & development.

 

[Paulpash]

Oh ta. I did consider as you said. Another option is to let one of the primary branches up top elongate and bend it down to cover the bare sections. Well will see.

Sithee.

From (what it sounds) one Yorkshire lad to another I'll be honest, don't do this mate, it'll look shit. Where you from btw, I'm from Doncaster.

 

[Vance Wood]

The problem with all of this talk about grafting, it sounds good but how many of those suggesting this technique have actually done the deed on a Pine and let's see the result. I don't suggest grafting because I don't do grafting. I heard this and I saw so and so do that does on solve the problem. It is possible to imagine all sorts of things but reality is often far different than the real deal.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Maybe should have asked before butchering tree. Good luck with survival.

 

[coachspinks]

Let it recover. Let it get really hairy. Patience. In a year or three I can see you chopping it down toward the lowest whirl of branches, carving a couple of inches of the leftover trunk to add taper and interest, choosing another leader and then doing something with the leftover branches in that lowest group. It will become a 10" tree.

 

[jeanluc83]

I just finished chopping the top off, decandled and did the 1st wiring.

This talk about further training may be premature. Remember that scots pine is a single flush pine. By removing a lot of foliage (>80% by my estimate) and decandling (a JBP technique) you may have very well pushed this one beyond the tipping point. Keep an eye on your watering and give it as much sun as you can and you might be lucky. Other than that let it sit for a good while until it recovers.

 

[Dav4]

This talk about further training may be premature. Remember that scots pine is a single flush pine. By removing a lot of foliage (>80% by my estimate) and decandling (a JBP technique) you may have very well pushed this one beyond the tipping point. Keep an eye on your watering and give it as much sun as you can and you might be lucky. Other than that let it sit for a good while until it recovers.

What he said. I wouldn't do anything but give full sun, feed strongly once new growth begins to push, and water... carefully, as it's needs have been drastically reduced with the severe cut back. If you're lucky, it'll recover, but styling or pruning is out of the question for at least a year or two, and maybe longer.

 

[linlaoboo]

I agree with everyone. Thx for looking at it and your kind advise. Ryan Neil did a big scotspine in Europe in 2015 and he didn't like the grafting idea either. He did end up bendng a top branch down but that tree had lots of options to go with. Not that I'm comparing my tree to Ryan's work by any stretch. Just thought it was interesting to learn from master like him.

 

[linlaoboo]

Hello mate those r the only Yorkshire I learnt from an ex-coworker here in NJ in the states. Its a very cool language I thought just takes some getting used to.

From (what it sounds) one Yorkshire lad to another I'll be honest, don't do this mate, it'll look shit. Where you from btw, I'm from Doncaster.

 

[Adair M]

The problem with all of this talk about grafting, it sounds good but how many of those suggesting this technique have actually done the deed on a Pine and let's see the result. I don't suggest grafting because I don't do grafting. I heard this and I saw so and so do that does on solve the problem. It is possible to imagine all sorts of things but reality is often far different than the real deal.

Vance, I’ve done quite a bit of grafting on pines. I started off doing approach grafts, because I thought they would be easier. I got about 25% to take. Then, I tried scion grafts, putting the scions in baggies with spaghnum. Again, about 25% would take. The benefit of the scion grafts is you can place them more precisely where you want them, and if the don’t take, there’s smaller scar!

But what I’ve found works best for me is the “cigar method” where you wrap the scion in the parafilm first, then place it and tie it in. I’m getting about 80% to take now! (Part of it is just practice)!

It’s like wiring, the more you do it, the better you get at it!



There’s grafts on branches sude by side that I unwrapped yesterday! I left the wrap around the base of the one on the left for a couple more days.

I put 4 grafts on this past spring, and they’ve all taken.

 

[Vance Wood]

How many years have you been experimenting with the process?

 

[M. Frary]

All the grafting talk is great.
If it were mine I would have reduced it gradually down to the bottom limb and grew my tree from there.

 

[Adair M]

How many years have you been experimenting with the process?

I never tried to graft until I started studying with Boon. Six years ago. At my second Intensive, he showed us how he does a “double hook” type of approach graft on a juniper. It has a very high “take” rate, but leaves an unsightly bulge where it takes. I have two of those on this Western juniper that’s now a Kishu:



(I’m going to attempt to steam bend the long straight Jin when I go there in about 2 weeks.)

My attempts to approach graft pine branches back on to itself have not been very successful. I’ve tried several times on different trees.

Boon taught scion grafting using his plum tree in his garden. We grafted scions taken from other parts of the tree, and grafted them back on other places. Paul Kellum was at that class and he and I grafted some Ume onto the plum. The next year, we examined the grafts, and none of my plum grafts took, but the Ume did! That year, Boon taught the class to another set of Intensive students, and @Markscott noticed my dead plum grafts, and live Ume graft, and then grafted a piece of Shimpaku on the plum, and put my name on it!

Since then, I’ve worked with Juan Andrade, and we have grafted some JBP scions using the cigar technique on JBP, and that works well for me.

My big Utah juniper has 5 Kishu approach grafts going now. They were placed last November.



These were done by using a power tool to cut a groove in the trunk, and fitting the rooted cutting in the slot. The little pots are wired to hang on to the tree.