sand???

[Beetleman72]

In John Naka's bonsai techniques 1 he refers to "sand" quite a lot. When he says that does he mean like fine sand as in play sand or beach sand, or is he talking about coarse sand like fishtank rocks or decomposed granite?

 

[Vance Wood]

In John Naka's bonsai techniques 1 he refers to "sand" quite a lot. When he says that does he mean like fine sand as in play sand or beach sand, or is he talking about coarse sand like fishtank rocks or decomposed granite?

I can't say I know the mind of the man but he is most probably refering to coarse sand, the same kind of stuff I use; #2 or #3 swimming pool filter sand or sand blasting sand they are exactly the same product. Pool filter sand is not so easy because a lot of pool manufacturers no longer use sand in their equipment. However the very same product can be located at larger construction and building supply centers. Most big box stores like Home Depot or Lowes will not have the stuff you need a more serious building supply store.

 

[jkd2572]

What would be the reason for such small inorganics?

 

[Dan W.]

Peter Adams also mentions sand in his maples book. But he specifies that the "sand" he's using is mixed aquarium gravel with other coarse gravel (like decomposed granite). I think chicken grit would be pretty much the same thing.

I actually tried play sand when I started out too... it's not a good idea! Lol

 

[Vance Wood]

What would be the reason for such small inorganics?

Because it is an integral part of a soil mix according to some schools of thought.

 

[A Random User]

What would be the reason for such small inorganics?

A lot of people use coarse sand to root cuttings in, to train roots in,
such as "Root over Rock" plantings.

 

[Smoke]

I love sand. Just have to know how to use it.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I love sand. Just have to know how to use it.

And how is that? Maybe only use larger particles?

 

[Poink88]

In John Naka's bonsai techniques 1 he refers to "sand" quite a lot.

The book is great and has lots of good info but I think the soil portion is the weakest part being a bit "dated". There are new (and old) products that may work better now depending on individual needs/situation.

I personally do not use sand because it doesn't retain as much moisture as I need and it is heavier than most "soil" components. Again, this is based on my needs. Others might find these characteristics perfect and opt to use it. I may also use it in the future, as I continue to change/adjust my mix.

 

[Vance Wood]

The book is great and has lots of good info but I think the soil portion is the weakest part being a bit "dated". There are new (and old) products that may work better now depending on individual needs/situation.

I personally do not use sand because it doesn't retain as much moisture as I need and it is heavier than most "soil" components. Again, this is based on my needs. Others might find these characteristics perfect and opt to use it. I may also use it in the future, as I continue to change/adjust my mix.

The idea behind sand is not to hold moisture but to prevent your soil mix from becoming compacted and holding too much moisture.

 

[Poink88]

The idea behind sand is not to hold moisture but to prevent your soil mix from becoming compacted and holding too much moisture.

I know, and that is the reason I don't use it (due to my local conditions). There are other components that work better on my situation.

 

[Poink88]

The idea behind sand is not to hold moisture but to prevent your soil mix from becoming compacted and holding too much moisture.

Not to nit pick but this is a misnomer to me. No material can prevent the mix from being compacted (be it lava, pumice, akadama, etc.)....rather the elimination/avoidance of some type and/or size of material is.

For example you can have mostly sand but it won't prevent it from being "compacted" if you mix it with fine clay.

Not to argue just pointing a fact.

 

[Vance Wood]

Not to nit pick but this is a misnomer to me. No material can prevent the mix from being compacted (be it lava, pumice, akadama, etc.)....rather the elimination/avoidance of some type and/or size of material is.

For example you can have mostly sand but it won't prevent it from being "compacted" if you mix it with fine clay.

Not to argue just pointing a fact.

Have it your way.

 

[Paradox]

Play sand is too fine.
I use sand as a main soil component for my trees because its cheap and readily available.
I live with a land surveyor who has lots of local building contacts.
I've been able to get buckets of coarse sand from local sand mines/quarries or construction sites.
I mix it with differing proportions of rice gravel and pine bark depending on the species of tree.
The proportions have changed since I started, but so far the trees seem happy with it.

 

[dick benbow]

kiryu that like akadama comes bagged from Japan is often referred to as sand. truth is it's small stones. It's used for drainage in the soil mix and can also be used as a top dressing in certain applications.

Just a caution for the unknowing, chicken grit as long as it IS granite and not oyster shell is fine. The other can play "hobb" with your PH. be absolutely certain which one your getting from your feed store.

I use Kiryu faithfully in my soil mix. In the past with the type of pummice readily available,
I get frustrated as it tends to rise to the top of the soil after initial watering.

actual sand finds it's way into my suibons to display suiseki. There, color, smooth or course, dictates it's use according to the nature of the stone being displayed.

Bonsai soil like biological filters in koi ponds have to breath in order to make roots and filter bacteria happy. I find most sands fills those voids and compacts.

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

what if the roots grow through the spaces and then expand as they further elongate?

I noted that the roots in my mix will replace the spaces already there and also take the space of the compost as it decays to silt.
If allowed to do this for a while, apart from the roots at the base lifted the plant out of the pot, the same goes on for the spaces in the mix.

Does this help ?

Or is the idea of compaction you are talking about, what I wrote above ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Dario,

what if the roots grow through the spaces and then expand as they further elongate?

I noted that the roots in my mix will replace the spaces already there and also take the space of the compost as it decays to silt.
If allowed to do this for a while, apart from the roots at the base lifted the plant out of the pot, the same goes on for the spaces in the mix.

Does this help ?

Or is the idea of compaction you are talking about, what I wrote above ?
Good Day
Anthony

Roots will eventually grow where there are, to our eyes, no a spaces, given tim. The idea behind sand in a soil mix is to disrupt the kind of homogeneous structure that produces the cement llke compaction that can take place in improperly concocted soil mixes. Of course I may be wrong having learned nothing over the years.

 

[Poink88]

Or is the idea of compaction you are talking about, what I wrote above ?

No Anthony. I am referring to compaction as in using fines that fill all the voids (imagine cement mix).

I am a believer that not all fines are created equal...fine peat moss is not the same as fine clay (for me). I have no problem using peat moss but won't use clay in my soil mix. Again, this is just my take because of my local conditions and others can say it is rubbish (no problem). I use what works for me.

 

[Paradox]

Dario, I wouldn't use clay either where I am for the same reason. I have a couple of acidic and moisture loving trees that I use peat moss and /or top soil in the mix as well. My mix for my conifers and other trees drains very well. In my deeper training pots, it does retain some moisture for a day or two even on really hot days. I don't have to worry about watering more than once a day and I can skip a day in most cases.
Usually after 2 days most, if not all of them are dry according to the finger test and need water.

The 2 JBP I bought earlier this year that are in some sort of adacama mix dry out a little faster (about a day) and one of those looks like the soil is getting a bit compacted (drains much slower) so I'm probably going to have to do something about that one next spring.

 

[Vance Wood]

There is a problem with not using Clay in your soil mix, clay is one of the most stable substrates with a CEC which is necessary for soil stability. The problem is finding a source of clay that wont break down and that is why we use things like Turface and Akadam.