Removing a sacrifice on JBP in conjunction with root work?

When to remove sacrifice and do root work?


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Here is the photo from April and those two sacrifices are still running strong, one at the bottom and one near the top.
Maybe I’ll take the top one in winter 2021 and the bottom one in the winter of ‘22 or ‘23 depending on how things are going. I can regrow one from the top to keep the wounds small, but the lowest one is terminal, so to speak.
From my first post from tonight, do you think the top section has a place, or should I be thinking smaller?
The movement continues to the top, so I would continue to develop from there for the time being. The trunk is not so thick that one cannot change later.
 
I just read through this thread, and it appears to me that you’re trying to have too many sacrifices working all at once. You have an apical sacrifice, a lower right sacrifice, a lower left sacrifice... the whole tree is a sacrifice!

And, then, the sacrifice branches aren’t allowed to grow properly to do their job, which is to fatten the trunk. Why do I say this? Because they’re not growing UP, they’re growing out sideways.

Those trees that Frank posted, the ones with the fat trunks, they were grown with a single apical sacrifice, that was allowed to grow up, then chopped. A replacement sacrifice was then chosen to grow up, then it was chopped. Meanwhile, little lower branches were retained to eventually design the tree.

Low sacrifice branches just don’t really work to fatten the lower trunk very well. They didn’t produce the auxin that stimulates wood production. The most wood production will be produced to support the bud producing the most auxin, which is the apex, the highest point in the tree. If you have a low sacrifice branch 59 fatten the low parts of the tree, you have to let it grow tall, not “out”. It has to become the tallest point if the tree to become effective and build wood.

Any other way just confuses the tree, and you don’t get satisfactory results.

Here are the JBP growing at Telperion Farms:

0B9AB2D9-7C75-49D7-8C6F-20E61D85ACAF.jpeg

they have a single sacrifice, an apical sacrifice they let get 15 feet tall, then chop it back to 12 inches, select another sacrifice, and do it again!


It creates trunk lines like this:

A2A44DDC-15A2-4347-9237-2A5CA769186C.jpeg

You can see the secondary sacrifice is still there on that photo.

After a couple years of refinement, you get something like this:


2853966A-5277-4C70-B9D4-3673670B7C9B.jpeg

This tree was created by using only apical sacrifice branches, one at a time. Retaining lower branches to eventually become the primary branches of the tree.
 
I just read through this thread, and it appears to me that you’re trying to have too many sacrifices working all at once. You have an apical sacrifice, a lower right sacrifice, a lower left sacrifice... the whole tree is a sacrifice!

And, then, the sacrifice branches aren’t allowed to grow properly to do their job, which is to fatten the trunk. Why do I say this? Because they’re not growing UP, they’re growing out sideways.

Those trees that Frank posted, the ones with the fat trunks, they were grown with a single apical sacrifice, that was allowed to grow up, then chopped. A replacement sacrifice was then chosen to grow up, then it was chopped. Meanwhile, little lower branches were retained to eventually design the tree.

Low sacrifice branches just don’t really work to fatten the lower trunk very well. They didn’t produce the auxin that stimulates wood production. The most wood production will be produced to support the bud producing the most auxin, which is the apex, the highest point in the tree. If you have a low sacrifice branch 59 fatten the low parts of the tree, you have to let it grow tall, not “out”. It has to become the tallest point if the tree to become effective and build wood.

Any other way just confuses the tree, and you don’t get satisfactory results.

Here are the JBP growing at Telperion Farms:

View attachment 316588

they have a single sacrifice, an apical sacrifice they let get 15 feet tall, then chop it back to 12 inches, select another sacrifice, and do it again!


It creates trunk lines like this:

View attachment 316589

You can see the secondary sacrifice is still there on that photo.

After a couple years of refinement, you get something like this:


View attachment 316590

This tree was created by using only apical sacrifice branches, one at a time. Retaining lower branches to eventually become the primary branches of the tree.
Hi Adair
What you have indicated is correct to a certain extent. I differ with you on a couple of points.
The tree will only become confused if the apical leader is lower than side sacrifice branches or becomes weaker.
All sacrifice growth aids the thickening, even if the apical produces the most.

There are some advantages to using both sacrifice side branches and apical leaders at the same time.
The sacrifice branches help to keep a balance of growth throughout the tree so that more even development can be obtained. This means better lower branching present and easier to develop once the trunk has been thickened. It is a step to prevent having too few lower branches for future design. Often a weakness when trees are developed solely for trunk first and primary branches later!
I am not saying the OP situation is the best combination, just that one needs to be open to combining techniques in certain situations. The tree I posted was developed using the combination of apical leaders and lower sacrifice branches as well. It is just past the stage where the side sacrifice branches have been removed. However those side sacrifice branches played a large role in being able to develop the lower branching so effectively by retaining back bud potential in the lower portion of the tree while developing the trunk.
I know it is not the traditional grow the trunk first approach, but it can be effective in the right hands. Just for clarification, not arguing the points you made.
 
I just read through this thread, and it appears to me that you’re trying to have too many sacrifices working all at once. You have an apical sacrifice, a lower right sacrifice, a lower left sacrifice... the whole tree is a sacrifice!

And, then, the sacrifice branches aren’t allowed to grow properly to do their job, which is to fatten the trunk. Why do I say this? Because they’re not growing UP, they’re growing out sideways.

Those trees that Frank posted, the ones with the fat trunks, they were grown with a single apical sacrifice, that was allowed to grow up, then chopped. A replacement sacrifice was then chosen to grow up, then it was chopped. Meanwhile, little lower branches were retained to eventually design the tree.

Low sacrifice branches just don’t really work to fatten the lower trunk very well. They didn’t produce the auxin that stimulates wood production. The most wood production will be produced to support the bud producing the most auxin, which is the apex, the highest point in the tree. If you have a low sacrifice branch 59 fatten the low parts of the tree, you have to let it grow tall, not “out”. It has to become the tallest point if the tree to become effective and build wood.

Any other way just confuses the tree, and you don’t get satisfactory results.

One at a time I can do, but I think I need a “low” sacrifice to create the taper, right? When I say low sacrifice I mean that is emanating from lower on the trunk. It still extends above the presumable “apex” of the future design. And I do see your point about going much higher with the sacrifice in general.
There are two active and one partially removed sacrifices on my tree currently. One from the below the gist future branch. One from near the top and the middle one was cut back pretty hard this past spring, which I think did help out with the taper and thickening in general. Obviously the examples that have been posted for me are, at this point, out of my league and I am trying to learn from them.

But I question that the sacrifice needs to come from the top of the trunk. I’ve had good success generating taper from lower sacrifices on ficus.. admittedly a different beast. But doesn’t a sacrifice thicken where it joins the trunk and downward? Wouldn’t just having apical sacrifices lead to a uniformly thick trunk and no taper?

I do appreciate the guidance and discussion.
Cheers,
David
 
My post is not about what to do with this tree in particular, it was intended as a description of the way I think is the fastest way to develop a tapered trunk. And, I disagree with Frank that low sacrifice branches are required.

My tree posted in the post above has lots of low branches that were developed while the apex sacrifice branches did their thing. They were chopped back to keep them short, and start ramification. The apex sacrifice branch (trunk) was allowed to extend up some 12 to 15 feet. Side branches of the mail leader were periodically remived, as were excess needles in the main trunk to avoid shading the low growth down near the soil.

the result is, after removing the last sacrifice, a tree about 15 inches tall with a trunk base spread Of about 8 inches. With extreme taper. I know not everyone likes sumo style, and you don’t have to go to that extreme. But it was all done with apex sacrifice branches, one after another.

Subsequent apex sacrifices help callous over the chop scars of the previous sacrifices. If you prune low sacrifice branches, and don’t have an apex sacrifice branch, there is no rapidly growing point on the tree to stimulate callous growth over the cut scar.

in the past, I have tried to grow low sacrifice branches on JBP to attempt to fix problems such as reverse taper and no taper, with little success. All I did, mostly, was waste a couple years, and ended up with a scar low on the trunk that would hardly callous over, if at all. I’m just sharing my experience.
 
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I see, rather than have any low sacrifice branches, successive apical sacrifice branches are used, growing from the bottom up while retaining branches for the future design along the way. That makes sense, but a little late for my sole JBP subject.

I am, however, getting getting some thickening/taper from my lower sacrifices, just not at the speed or accuracy that you(both) are, but maybe if I just let them run a bit longer it will do the trick?

It actually makes me reconsider if the middle sacrifice is really done yet. If I can shoot the bottom sacrifice to 15 feet in the air, the middle one may have some catching up to do for taper.

Looking at my sacrifices they are sort of leaning towards the ground. Would it make sense to stake the sacrifice up to make it more apical for hormones and auxins? Or is that counter productive to not have them swaying in the breeze?

Here it is in all of it’s current glory:
 

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Here it is in all of it’s current glory

It looks amazingly square and milled!

To as light-heartedly as possible enter the conversation....

Truth truth....

Everything does what it does and if you are observing your everything is doing what it is doing and it is helping your mission, you are doing everything correctly.

Sorce
 
It looks amazingly square and milled!

To as light-heartedly as possible enter the conversation....

Truth truth....

Everything does what it does and if you are observing your everything is doing what it is doing and it is helping your mission, you are doing everything correctly.

Sorce
Of course the other options is to take of the sacrifices and plop it in this sweet drum pot that I “sourced,”as quickly as health permits. Is it too thick for literati?

Don’t mind me, just trying not to get some work done today.
 

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I see, rather than have any low sacrifice branches, successive apical sacrifice branches are used, growing from the bottom up while retaining branches for the future design along the way. That makes sense, but a little late for my sole JBP subject.

I am, however, getting getting some thickening/taper from my lower sacrifices, just not at the speed or accuracy that you(both) are, but maybe if I just let them run a bit longer it will do the trick?

It actually makes me reconsider if the middle sacrifice is really done yet. If I can shoot the bottom sacrifice to 15 feet in the air, the middle one may have some catching up to do for taper.

Looking at my sacrifices they are sort of leaning towards the ground. Would it make sense to stake the sacrifice up to make it more apical for hormones and auxins? Or is that counter productive to not have them swaying in the breeze?

Here it is in all of it’s current glory:
I think you are doing just fine, the last picture helps a lot! I would consider wiring up the top apical leader. It will still move somewhat in the breeze ( not a concern in my eyes).
The lowest sacrifice can be retained to add girth to the lowest portion of the base until you feel it has done its job and or the size of the scar is what you wish to deal with!
Based on how you reduced the other sacrifice branch it is obvious you will benefit from bud back response. For that reason I would wait until spring to further reduce and begin healing the scar in that location.
Good work, sometimes the ugly stages are beautiful just in the promise they hold!
 
I love it when I forget shit!

In looking at the material again....

I think you have the opportunity to take it in any direction you wish from here....

But it also seems sitting in this state of limbo that can destroy every option.

I also don't believe in that state of limbo at all.

I don't believe there is such thing as too thick for literati. Too tapered is a possibility. But just as we can make taper, we can remove it.

When I am presented with such questions in my own material, I just get a few more things and wait for this one to....as @BobbyLane recently said elsewhere...show me what it wants. Which, as he stated, is harder for some folks to grasp than others.

I think the thing that we must pay most, and least attention to, is the balance of us and tree.

Sorce
 
Of course the other options is to take of the sacrifices and plop it in this sweet drum pot that I “sourced,”as quickly as health permits. Is it too thick for literati?

Don’t mind me, just trying not to get some work done today.
Nope keep it in the larger container while you develop primary branching, it will be quicker!
 
I see, rather than have any low sacrifice branches, successive apical sacrifice branches are used, growing from the bottom up while retaining branches for the future design along the way. That makes sense, but a little late for my sole JBP subject.

I am, however, getting getting some thickening/taper from my lower sacrifices, just not at the speed or accuracy that you(both) are, but maybe if I just let them run a bit longer it will do the trick?

It actually makes me reconsider if the middle sacrifice is really done yet. If I can shoot the bottom sacrifice to 15 feet in the air, the middle one may have some catching up to do for taper.

Looking at my sacrifices they are sort of leaning towards the ground. Would it make sense to stake the sacrifice up to make it more apical for hormones and auxins? Or is that counter productive to not have them swaying in the breeze?

Here it is in all of it’s current glory:

yes, stake them up!
 
Of course the other options is to take of the sacrifices and plop it in this sweet drum pot that I “sourced,”as quickly as health permits. Is it too thick for literati?

Don’t mind me, just trying not to get some work done today.
If you have some spare time here are eighty four JBP and JRP that will require the same decision making process.
So you are not alone in the quest!
They are at a similar stage to your tree, have been in the grow boxes for three years, will transfer to Anderson flats next spring! No two are alike and the timeline will be different for each!
I sort of wait for the following!
Trunk and base desired
How much benefit I can get from sacrifice before it creates a problem in my eye's ( generally scar size unless correcting taper forces me to go longer)
As long as possible to retain inner foliage and promote inner buds while growing out the apical!
Opportunity to incrementally improve roots each time I repot.
I only seriously consider bonsai pot after developed, nebari, base, trunk, primary branches, secondary branches and tertiary branches.
Worry about internode length when branch development begins! Stage by Stage!
wiring as soon as possible to make it easier.
cut back, decandling, bifurcation,
Then I consider reducing needle size. Besides it will do it somewhat naturally as density increases.
Come to think of it most of the job is waiting!
 

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...there is a shoot down low in there I'll try to build a tree from...but for now, it's a bit of a charge telling somebody eyeballin' that I'm growing a sacrifice branch...carry on....
Love your sense of humour and photographic skills;) These have interesting variation in the bark and foliage! Well done!
 
First off, thanks for the additional pictures. Nothing more to do at this stage. Lots of Sun, Water, and fertilizer!
1. The interior buds are usually left to grow for at least two seasons.
2. Decandling is used for refining foliage and creating pads!
It is not used if you are still developing primary, secondary and tertiary branching on pines.
Your tree is not close to that stage!
3. For the coming years the process will be grow out and cut back. The grow out is to retain vigor. The cut back is to promote back budding!
This action is primarily in the design portion of the tree.
4. The apical leader will be allowed to grow out until the base reaches the desired thickness or you wish to change leaders and or direction for movement.

You will be working towards this general shape over the next five years before decandling activity. The apical leader and overall size depends on your final style and expected height. This is just to help you grasp the concept. Decandling has begun with branches developed and style wired. Tree belongs to one of my teachers.
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I was rereading this thread for the advice I got previously, and I am thinking the non-sacrifice branches are getting ready for a cut-back sometime in the next year. It will have been two years this coming Spring, and is displaying plenty of vigor.
What time of year are cut backs for back-budding usually done?
 
I was rereading this thread for the advice I got previously, and I am thinking the non-sacrifice branches are getting ready for a cut-back sometime in the next year. It will have been two years this coming Spring, and is displaying plenty of vigor.
What time of year are cut backs for back-budding usually done?
Traditional timing will be with fall maintenance and pruning. Approximate calendar time for this is mid October to mid November. I would check with individuals in your area for more specific timing. In your zone it may be possible to move the dates a bit earlier! I am in a warmer climatic zone overall.
For very young and vigorous stock I have also used the beginning of what would normally be referred to as de-candling time as a time for hard pruning. The beginning of June to the beginning of July. This can work well in areas that have a long growing season, allowing the tree to strengthen sufficiently before winter sets in. My particular growing site is hot and dry for the summer with warm fall temperatures! Very little risk of cold hard frosts or weather before Christmas.
 
I have a couple “competing” threads on this tree (my fault). But I was rereading through both and realized I still have another HBR to do. That and my sacrifice was getting a little out of hand. I was debating chopping the big sacrifice (landscapers already did the apical one a month or so ago with a lawn mower.

I decided to flip it around as the light has been very one sided the last 3(?) years. And leave the sacrifice until later fall. The thought was that fall sugars would help repair the root work I just did with a shovel. And maybe I could save enough energy to do the other HBR this Spring.

Does any one have a link to the “peg” method for removing sacrifices? This one is pretty big I was thinking it could use an advance technique or two to help in the removal.F985AB7D-79FD-4289-91D1-4FEC08C7AC1D.jpeg3AA4676B-9D7D-42E9-95CB-F6788A4F3FE0.jpeg03E8266B-05F1-4B58-A556-F57AD8362930.jpeg
 
Does any one have a link to the “peg” method for removing sacrifices?
I suspect you are referring to leaving a peg in the middle, when cutting off a large branch or trunk section. The purpose being to aid in healing larger scars and preventing them from desiccating too quickly while establishing blushing some callus on the perimeter. I would combine that approach with a stepped reduction when you decide to remove the larger sacrifice.
For best timing I prefer to remove large sacrifice side branches and apical leaders after the spring candles after extended and the needles are just standing away from the candle. This takes advantage of the growth spurt at the beginning of the growing season in multi flush pines.
First, cut off the larger sacrifice leaving a two inch stub.
Second return in 2 to 3 months and carve down to the level for healing but leave the centre as a peg comprising approximately 1/3 of the area in the centre of the scar. ( I use cut paste on the perimeter and peg)
Third after the perimeter is healing well ( say 1 or two years later than complete the removal of the peg. ( I renew the cut paste at this point as well )
Hope the thought help.
 
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