Reducing branch junctions during development

[wiggles15]

I picked up this Japanese Black Pine from House of Bonsai in Southern California. The nebari is about 3.5 inches and the tree is probably about 3.5 feet tall. In the late winter I'm planning to repot it into a grow box (probably 16"x16") with a better quality soil since it's basically in sand. Then I want to let it grow for a year or two before doing finer branch development.

There are a handful branches (both primary and secondary branches) that have 3-4 other branches growing from the whorl. My question is should I reduce these whorls to 2 branches to prevent reverse taper? Or should I just let them grow out and deal with them later?

If you have any other thoughts on what you would do with this tree in the late winter / early spring, I'd love to hear it!

 

[Shibui]

Looks pretty typical of field grown black pine - both the whorls of branches and the foliage way out on the ends. I suspect you'll find more than a handful of whorl clusters when you start to look closely.
You will definitely need to reduce the clusters of branches at some stage and probably sooner rather than later but don't rush in and take off all the side branches. The shorter side branches are really valuable to reduce the length of those over long branches so consider removing the longer centre shoots and leaving 2 smaller side shoots at junctions where possible, even if that means spending a couple of years regrowing branch or apex.

 

[clem]

In the late winter I'm planning to repot it into a grow box (probably 16"x16") with a better quality soil since it's basically in sand. Then I want to let it grow for a year or two before doing finer branch development.

good thing to repot it, but why repot it in the late winter rather than in spring when the buds start to grow ? In late winter, the risk of frost after repotting is bigger than in spring.
we don"t see the nebari but the trunk line with movement, the good tapper, and the mature bark are very good IMO

 

[wiggles15]

Looks pretty typical of field grown black pine - both the whorls of branches and the foliage way out on the ends. I suspect you'll find more than a handful of whorl clusters when you start to look closely.
You will definitely need to reduce the clusters of branches at some stage and probably sooner rather than later but don't rush in and take off all the side branches. The shorter side branches are really valuable to reduce the length of those over long branches so consider removing the longer centre shoots and leaving 2 smaller side shoots at junctions where possible, even if that means spending a couple of years regrowing branch or apex.

Thanks for the tips. It sounds like I should prioritize reducing the junctions to two branches. It does look like there are quite a few but not too much reverse taper in the branches.

 

[wiggles15]

good thing to repot it, but why repot it in the late winter rather than in spring when the buds start to grow ? In late winter, the risk of frost after repotting is bigger than in spring.
we don"t see the nebari but the trunk line with movement, the good tapper, and the mature bark are very good IMO

Repotting in late winter because I’m in San Francisco where it won’t get below 45F.

I agree! I sorted through maybe a hundred trees and this would was calling to me. Adding a picture of the nebari too. I like how gradual and natural it looks. Other trees had a very bulbous nebari that had an unrealistic taper.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks for the tips. It sounds like I should prioritize reducing the junctions to two branches. It does look like there are quite a few but not too much reverse taper in the branches.

If reducing to two make sure you do not select opposites and end up with bar branching on the tree. Also be sure to select appropriate size for position on the trunk. When in doubt keep smaller branches.

 

[Paradox]

If reducing to two make sure you do not select opposites and end up with bar branching on the tree. Also be sure to select appropriate size for position on the trunk. When in doubt keep smaller branches.

While I agree totally for branches on or near the trunk, I think further out where pictured (with the fingers) is fine to keep the branches at 3 oclock and 9 oclock to promote better ramification and gives more room for pad development than choosing the branches at 9 oclock and 6 oclock.

Those branches are not growing in a 180 degrees line from each other which would be bad. There is a lesser angle as they extend from that junction and they can be wired to change the angle if necessary. Hopefully another bud will pop along there somewhere that can be cut back to.

 

[wiggles15]

While I agree totally for branches on or near the trunk, I think further out where pictured (with the fingers) is fine to keep the branches at 3 oclock and 9 oclock to promote better ramification and gives more room for pad development than choosing the branches at 9 oclock and 6 oclock.

Those branches are not growing in a 180 degrees line from each other which would be bad. There is a lesser angle as they extend from that junction and they can be wired to change the angle if necessary. Hopefully another bud will pop along there somewhere that can be cut back to.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. But for now, I’m really doing it just to prevent swelling at the junctions while the tree establishes itself in its new grow box and sliiightly different climate.

 

[clem]

I agree! I sorted through maybe a hundred trees and this would was calling to me. Adding a picture of the nebari too. I like how gradual and natural it looks. Other trees had a very bulbous nebari that had an unrealistic taper.

That's cool, it reminds my researches 15 years ago, for mugo pines, when it was still possible to find good material for Bonsai in "garden centers". Nowadays, in my country, all the pines available in containers are grafted, with straight trunk and broom style. Produced on an assembly line like in factories to reduce costs and increase margin. So sad and mediocre :/
I would love to go to Japan for 1 week and devote this time to find my favorite JWP or JBP grown in the ground for a century..

Concerning your pine, those branches are long and bald.



But maybe, after timming, on a strong JBP, you can stimulate back budding.

 

[Paradox]

Concerning your pine, those branches are long and bald.

But maybe, after timming, on a strong JBP, you can stimulate back bubudding.

Possible but not a guarantee with a good feeding regimen, wiring the branches and pruning and thinning needles appropriately at the right times of the year to let sun into the interior of the tree.

@wiggles15
As to you question of what to do now.
I would start looking at which branches you don't want to keep in the future design. Go through and reduce the multiple branches at whorls to two as discussed above. Wire some shape into the branches that you can with copper wire. Thin needles - remove all 3 year old needles. Remove all other needles that are sticking straight up or down on a branch. New buds will form on the sides where you leave needles. That's where you want them. Assess the strength zones on the tree and balance the number of needles based on strength of the branch/zone. I don't have the recommended numbers to reduce to in my head (typing this on my phone lying in bed ) but search for Adair M or Brian Van Fleet on these forums. Both have discussed needle reduction on JBP. Brian has a really good book on JPB development.

If you plan to repot it, that will probably be in March. Let it recover from that then start feeding it every two weeks. Let it recover from repotting. You can thin needles and assess wiring in the fall of a repot year.

In years you dont repot:
In March, start feeding this tree and feed it twice a month next year. Candle prune it in late June/early July (between June 20 and July 4th). Dont candle prune if you repot that year unless it has a very strong growth reponse after. Stop feeding after you cut candles until the new ones grow and harden off to control shoot size. Once hardened off feed again until the middle of October. Assess your wiring again in the fall. Remove and replace any wires starting to bite in. Thin needles in fall as appropriate.

This pine looks like a fun project that you could learn a lot from.

 

[Shibui]

Thin needles - remove all 3 year old needles.

I would not do this all over at this stage.
You desperately need buds closer to the trunk and main branches. Those 3 year needles can give that at this time of year. I prune branches back to the oldest healthy needles. That will usually force buds from those needles. If you are lucky maybe some on older bare parts too but almost certain where there are needles.
If those oldest/lowest needles are plucked now I find it reduces budding to the needles you have left on when the branches are pruned.
You can remove some older needles in areas where there's no need for new buds. That will allow more light and should concentrate buds in the areas you need them most.

 

[River's Edge]

remove all 3 year old needles.

I disagree. This is counterproductive during development, JBP can retain needles for four or five years under healthy conditions. JBP create back buds from two sources, adventitious buds and needle buds. Keeping the needles for longer periods of time closer to the trunk, on the interior of branches simply improves the chances of additional back budding. By all means follow the guidelines for thinning, removing bottom downward needles, allowing more light and air in to promote back budding. Wiring the branches out and open with tips down to suppress auxin will all contribute!
Do not confuse directions for refinement techniques with directions for developmental techniques. It is important to keep the stages separate when applying technique.

 

[wiggles15]

I didn’t know about the backbudding where needles are. I’ll probably just keep as many needles as possible. Possibly do some light wiring, if needed. Will post a follow up here after pruning so yall can see more of the branch structure.

 

[River's Edge]

I’ll probably just keep as many needles as possible

Actually spend some time reviewing the comments with respect to thinning needles, Those growing from the bottom of the branch can be removed, Selecting alternates on the top and sides is beneficial as well. I will attach a couple of pictures illustrating the approach for development that encourages back budding along with wiring and opening up the branch structure. These three pictures will assist understanding the comments others have made with respect to needle thinning as opposed to removal of all needles in a section. The key is to remember that during development you are working the foliage back in to the interior while developing new branches. Complete needle removal comes when you have new shoots in the interior and you wish to protect them from being shaded out, removing needles around them allows them to strengthen. Three pictures attached to show results of correct needle selection to promote back budding.Hope this helps to clarify.

 

[Paradox]

I guess it depends on where you consider this tree to be.
I would consider it to be more in the refinement stage than development.
I has a trunk and main branches pretty much set and just needs ramification from what I can see albeit it is hard to tell from some of the pictures.

 

[Ruddigger]

You can repot now here in Southern California. House of Bonsai basically plants in sand and mud, it will kill the tree, trust me I know.

 

[Paradox]

You can repot now here in Southern California. House of Bonsai basically plants in sand and mud, it will kill the tree, trust me I know.

That is good to know.
OP is in San Francisco though and you are quite a bit further south.
How similar is the weather between you and there?

 

[Ruddigger]

That is good to know.
OP is in San Francisco though and you are quite a bit further south.
How similar is the weather between you and there?

They both have mild winters, we just get a little hotter down here.

 

[wiggles15]

That is good to know.
OP is in San Francisco though and you are quite a bit further south.
How similar is the weather between you and there?

Just a tad colder. Not a true winter up in SF. Lows really are just in the 40s.

You can repot now here in Southern California. House of Bonsai basically plants in sand and mud, it will kill the tree, trust me I know.

Yea I’ve definitely noticed this. They’ve been growing these forever and they seem to do fine while at the nursery? Not really sure why they do this.

 

[Shibui]

They’ve been growing these forever and they seem to do fine while at the nursery? Not really sure why they do this.

We can grow trees in almost any soil provided we match care to the soil. Their care and watering obviously matches with the soil the use = success but as soon as someone else takes it and changes watering or care things can go astray.
If you were to match HoB conditions the trees would probably thrive for you too.
Most of us need the flexibility of the more modern, open bonsai mixes to protect the trees from our over enthusiasm for applying water, etc.
Agree that repotting early winter is Ok for warmer places.
Winter fertilizer also seems to boost spring growth so a few weeks after repotting you could start gentle fert to get those new buds pumping.