Red Pine new growth hanging down. Advice needed.

[sorce]

All the new needles

Seems only some no?

Unless that is "all" the new growth, which would bring up more questions for me, like, why did only those buds grow?

Perhaps some clarification of previous years work and results, etc is necessary to properly find the problem.

As it stands, your care hasn't changed so dramatically that it would have caused something different.

However, facts like, when is the last time IT was repotted, is something that can have a certain change after x years, and we still don't have this information. Or anything to compare it to.

Which is why I would like to better understand more of it's previous life, lest you end up running around bad information and the problem gets worse, or worse, goes unsolved.

First thought, Pests?
Second thought, doubt it.
Third thought, it knows it's a semi cascade.
Fourth thought, doubt third thought less than first thought.

Sorce

 

[Clicio]

Unless that is "all" the new growth, which would bring up more questions for me, like, why did only those buds grow?

OK, let's clarify this.
The apical growth is elongating less and it is going up, and not so soft as the growth lower down on the tree.
Which means apical growth is OK, almost like previous years, but not the rest of the new buds, very long and limp.

 

[sorce]

long and limp

Lol!

Does it smell different? Sticky?

I still don't think it's pests, too exactly placed, especially as it corresponds with the lower or downward facing growth.

I wouldn't discount "smart tree theory", in that it seems to be putting growth into efficient places.

"Smart tree theory" says while the means may seem "off" to us, the ends seem to justify the means, but we never reach the ends because we don't understand the means.

If the easiest way for a tree to get foliage into the most efficient place for it's best energy return, is to limp it out to reach that place, we should allow it.

I think there is an increased amount of "oddities" we worry of due to the fact that these are "bonsai" trees. By being bonsai'd they exhibit oddities, that we only notice because we are so intimate with them.
We create normal situations unfound in nature.

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

In other words you consider self too good to learn from experts because of knowing it all already. Having been keeping trees 52 years only recently have found true experts largely know better. Humility second only to basic horticulture skill in present hobby.

Your ''other words'' not mine.

I just don't care to learn in a pro-active way anymore, I know enough to keep myself happy. BTW, if you have been practicing for 52 years, you should be an expert yourself.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Your ''other words'' not mine.

I just don't care to learn in a pro-active way anymore, I know enough to keep myself happy. BTW, if you have been practicing for 52 years, you should be an expert yourself.

Only arrogant lacking humility ever consider self "expert".

 

[River's Edge]

OK, let's clarify this.
The apical growth is elongating less and it is going up, and not so soft as the growth lower down on the tree.
Which means apical growth is OK, almost like previous years, but not the rest of the new buds, very long and limp.

I would suspect that apical growth could be reduced and allow lower growth to strengthen. Balancing the zones on apically dominant species is needed to keep lower growth strong. When a tree is growing well the top takes off and this becomes more important with lots of foliage. Combined with extra moisture and a good supply of nutrients the disparity will become pronounced. ( I think this is what you are observing) Keep in mind that the apical growth likely started soon and will have been more advanced if the wetter season came along more recently to affect the growth coming along behind.

My approach would be to allow new growth to harden off and then balance the zones. Strong candles with excessive length can be cut back in the fall and if the tree is far enough along in progression ( you feel that your primary goals of compaction and back budding is accomplished) balance candles by counting pairs of needles. Leaving fewer pairs on the strong growth, more on the medium growth and not reducing the weaker growth. Generally the lower zones and interior buds. The tree seems relatively compact with lots of growth from the close up pictures presented. If that is the case then taking the regular fall maintenance routine a step further with needle balancing will assist in strengthening the weaker areas as well as promoting more balanced needle length throughout the tree.
You are probably already aware of this technique, but if not a good safe starting point would be leave (7 pair strong candles) ( 9 pair medium candles) ( 11 pair Weaker candles) . No reduction on weak or struggling buds.
The situation is one of adjusting care routines and managing the new growth to strengthen and balance. Just my thoughts, I generally try the simple things first.

Of course all these ideas need to be applied within your seasons in Brazil. Normally fall maintenance with pines, but can often be completed with good effect late winter as well. I suspect you ar in late spring, early summer at this time.

 

[Clicio]

You are probably already aware of this technique, but if not a good safe starting point would be leave (7 pair strong candles) ( 9 pair medium candles) ( 11 pair Weaker candles) . No reduction on weak or struggling buds.
The situation is one of adjusting care routines and managing the new growth to strengthen and balance. Just my thoughts, I generally try the simple things first.

Of course all these ideas need to be applied within your seasons in Brazil. Normally fall maintenance with pines, but can often be completed with good effect late winter as well. I suspect you ar in late spring, early summer at this time.

Yes Frank, I have been balancing the strength of weaker and stronger apical growth at the right times, at least trying to.
Decandling late summer, choosing buds and getting rid of old needles before Spring, thinning more the top than the lower or underside growth to let air and sun to the weaker parts of the tree.
Yes, you're right, this is the end of the Spring for us down here. My plan is to let it grow during the summer months and then decide if it needs decandling or not this year.
Thanks for your nice suggestions!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Forgive me for butting in here because I don't know anything about Red or any other Pines, but the pictures look just like the only Red Pine I know of in the local landscape with the characteristic long, slender foliage Foliage grows in the direction that the buds point, and if there are lots of buds, some may be pointed down rather than up. This soft foliage will droop a little no matter which way it points. Aren't these some of the buds you would eliminate in the styling process?

 

[Clicio]

Aren't these some of the buds you would eliminate in the styling process?

Yes, they are.
But it has never happened before, and I own this tree for 4 or 5 years, which made me curious about it.

 

[Bu-Jetjet]

If it's in a bonsai pot it's time for refinement and restraining regardless of size. (Mine where in normal pots for 20 years before putting into a display pot) Otherwise it should be in a large terracotta pot and fed as you say but red pine should not be forced too much at any stage and it should be kept rather dry or you will probably end up having to graft on buds sometime down the road.
I no longer need to watch things like Mirai Live as I have been growing trees for longer than them, besides which, Ryan's word salads bore me sideways

WORD SALADS! I can't "unhear" it anymore every time I listen to his most recent podcast(s). Hahahaha!

 

[Clicio]

UPDATE

Mid summer here, and the buds are all pointing up as they should.
So maybe @sorce was right, they do what they want and that's ok.
Fact is I am happy to see it growing as usual, thanks for all suggestions!
@River's Edge I will not decandle it this year. I'll let it grow free for a while.

 

[sorce]

So maybe @sorce was right, they do what they want and that's ok.

We can't know that without more information!

This is an interesting thread.

I believe "experts" can get you to a place, but excellent observation can take you further.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

UPDATE

Mid summer here, and the buds are all pointing up as they should.
So maybe @sorce was right, they do what they want and that's ok.
Fact is I am happy to see it growing as usual, thanks for all suggestions!
@River's Edge I will not decandle it this year. I'll let it grow free for a while.

View attachment 415719

Did you chew those needles? Or did your scissors attack them to adjust the length? I see some broken tips on last years needles.
The color looks great, healthy and the buds are extending nicely! Mine are still dormant, wonder why that is? High of 5 Celsius and low of -3 lately in my neck of the woods.

 

[Clicio]

Did you chew those needles? Or did your scissors attack them to adjust the length? I see some broken tips on last years needles.

Scissors, to shorten the needles, done during the last season. The result is...brown tips of course!

 

[bwaynef]

The color looks great, healthy and the buds are extending nicely! Mine are still dormant, wonder why that is? High of 5 Celsius and low of -3 lately in my neck of the woods.

Clicio is in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

UPDATE

Mid summer here <snip> I will not decandle it this year. I'll let it grow free for a while.

Expect that this will lead to long needles as well, but you'll be rewarded with lots more vigor and backbudding eventually as a result.

 

[Clicio]

UPDATE

Last weeks of summer here, and the tree is as healthy as any other in my garden
Let´s see what will happen next year.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Looks very healthy!!

 

[Potawatomi13]

A good year.