Reactions to the First Artisans Cup

[reddog]

Can you please tell me how Scrolls are an less "American" than Bonsai itself is? Have we somehow now invented Bonsai ?
Man, the Kool-aid in Seattle must have been something! Cause everyone seems to be trippin' all of a sudden... Deciding what kind of trees are really American, obviously, and now deciding what kind of display is really American as well.

Seattle? bonsai herald input is from someone in Connecticut not the northwest/seattle. However, I do agree with what you are saying about ryan neils interpretation about bonsai in america is ok but scrolls are not. just a tad bit of arrogance showing by ryan neil but nothing new.

 

[0soyoung]

Any chance you (or anyone else posting here) has a picture of the vine maple display? I've seen lots of pics from the show, but can't remember seeing that one. I assume it's the same tree as here? http://crataegus.com/portfolio/vine-maple-tower-2015/

That's it!
Search for white pine on cretagus and you should find the progression of Konnor's JWP that was belatedly and embarrasingly recognized afterward as another third place tree in the show (humiliating embarrassment, IMHO, but I do commend the Neils' response to discovery of the goof).

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

Can you please tell me how Scrolls are an less "American" than Bonsai itself is? Have we somehow now invented Bonsai ?
Man, the Kool-aid in Seattle must have been something! Cause everyone seems to be trippin' all of a sudden... Deciding what kind of trees are really American, obviously, and now deciding what kind of display is really American as well.

First of all, I am not anti-scroll. I have several scrolls that I quite enjoy.

American bonsai trees are simply trees that are native to the United States. Bonsai professions like Boon, Ryan, and Michael are trying to take what they learned in Japan and apply it to American species. That is not to say that they don't work with Japanese material. Boon is the master of black pine, and Michael has a stunning ezo spruce in his yard.

An extreme of American bonsai would be an American species tree, planted in an American made pot, displayed on an American made stand, and shown with an accent plant that was native where the tree was found. Scrolls in Ryan's mind are not something that is necessary in American bonsai. I see his reasoning, and have yet to make any conclusions for myself personally.

 

[Eric Group]

I think this actually made sense. Scrolls are not something American.

It is a good point, but I can see both sides. Scrolls are not American, but neither is Bonsai. Now, the scrolls and the entire display where the companion plants and scrolls are used to tell a story to speak to the season... It is all based around displaying the tree, scroll... In a little nook inside of the home, right? In Japan, that is what many people do and where they will temporarily display their trees... Scrolls are also much more commonly found in Japan all over. Not just displayed with Bonsai. They are a common way to display art, calligraphy... Not nearly as common in America, not nearly as large a part of our culture...

So, with that in mind and understanding the theme was AMERICAN Bonsai- American Soecies of trees (mostly) preference on American pots and American style... I can see where the traditional Japanese display items like scrolls were not part of the plan.

I can also understand why Sawgrass would be upset by it, being a painter of scrolls... My POV on this though is that one show does not "change reality" Stacy. He was merely presenting it in his view with an American POV. Doesn't mean that going forward no American shows will display trees with scrolls.

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

He doesn't see the scrolls as necessary. We need a pot for bonsai, we need some sort of stand to elevate it from the display table. An accent is nice as long as it compliments and doesn't distract from the tree. Scrolls he thought were not necessary for American bonsai. At least, that was my impression from the panel discussion.

 

[reddog]

That's it!
Search for white pine on cretagus and you should find the progression of Konnor's JWP that was belatedly and embarrasingly recognized afterward as another third place tree in the show (humiliating embarrassment, IMHO, but I do commend the Neils' response to discovery of the goof).

What choice did they have as a response to the embarrassing error? I feel for Konner not receiving the accolades the day the awards were made at the brunch and at the show. Maybe someone should show the neil's how to put this into a spreadsheet and then sort from highest to lowest.

 

[0soyoung]

Can you please tell me how Scrolls are an less "American" than Bonsai itself is? Have we somehow now invented Bonsai ?
Man, the Kool-aid in Seattle must have been something! Cause everyone seems to be trippin' all of a sudden... Deciding what kind of trees are really American, obviously, and now deciding what kind of display is really American as well.

If anything in bonsai that is purely 'American', it is what Nick Lenz and Mr. Crust have been doing. Then, there is a hamburger in lieu of a kusa - is there anything more representative of American culture? Cultures borrow ideas from one another and recast them into their own expressions. You're an artist, why is it so tough for you to understand? I'd have thought this to be right up your alley.

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

What choice did they have as a response to the embarrassing error? I feel for Konner not receiving the accolades the day the awards were made at the brunch and at the show. Maybe someone should show the neil's how to put this into a spreadsheet and then sort from highest to lowest.

Everyone, can we please stop attacking the Neil's. Bonsai is an art form, and with all art comes controversy. Also, when pulling off a show of this magnitude, errors are bound to happen. Please don't underestimate what the Neil's accomplished last weekend. I think everyone at the Cup saw the show as being extremely inspiring and a huge success for American bonsai.

 

[0soyoung]

What choice did they have as a response to the embarrassing error? I feel for Konner not receiving the accolades the day the awards were made at the brunch and at the show. Maybe someone should show the neil's how to put this into a spreadsheet and then sort from highest to lowest.

Yah, but the normal instinct is to try to pretend it didn't happen and then, when pressed, to say 'oh well, too late now'. It takes some real character to face up to such a big fuck up. Maybe enough character to compensate for the malfeasance of having let it happen. I'm not sure what to say about Hagedorn, though. His superficial crap about shit in Turface didn't do much for me, but we all make mistakes. But top that with his minion ties for 3rd in THE SHOW and he doesn't notice? I dunno.

But yes, I empatize with Konnor. I feel his pain.

 

[reddog]

Everyone, can we please stop attacking the Neil's. Bonsai is an art form, and with all art comes controversy. Also, when pulling off a show of this magnitude, errors are bound to happen. Please don't underestimate what the Neil's accomplished last weekend. I think everyone at the Cup saw the show as being extremely inspiring and a huge success for American bonsai.

Easy BH, your lower lip is starting to quiver.

 

[coh]

He doesn't see the scrolls as necessary. We need a pot for bonsai, we need some sort of stand to elevate it from the display table. An accent is nice as long as it compliments and doesn't distract from the tree. Scrolls he thought were not necessary for American bonsai. At least, that was my impression from the panel discussion.

Yes, if there is one thing that (in my opinion) can be eliminated, it is the scroll...for the reasons you noted. Now, maybe the standard scroll can be replaced by something more "American", such as a framed painting or photograph. I've seen that done in some shows and I liked that approach.

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

I'm just saying that we can criticize all we want, but the fact is that the artisans cup was the best bonsai show I've been to in America. I think most of the people at the cup would agree, so let's put away our guns.

 

[A Random User]

The point about the scrolls is this... It has little to do with whether I like them or not, or whether anyone else likes them, or not, whether I paint them etc..
It has to do with the fact that to say they are somehow not "American" is just plain ridiculous! I mean, what the hell is "American" bonsai anyways??? We don't
even actually have a clue, seeing that for the most part we are pretty much still just starting off searching for our own identity! So, then why the hell are we already trying to set boundaries of what we can and cannot do, when we should be pushing Boundaries!

So, perhaps then someone should inform the rest of us what else isn't "American" Bonsai... seeing then we all would at least know. For me personally, I think we should get rid of accent plants! I get tired of seeing succulents, and to be honest they are a bit of redundancy... one already has a plant, their tree. A lot of other folks hate mossing their pots!

 

[coh]

Or, what is American Bonsai? When I look at the pictures from the Artisans Cup, what I see are a lot of trees that look very much like what you might call "classical Japanese bonsai", i.e. what you might see at Kokufu...except done using American species (and not even entirely American species, but more than you might see in most shows). So what exactly is it that is being promoted here as "American Bonsai"? Certainly doesn't appear to be much that is ground-breaking in the styling of most of the trees, though perhaps that is an unfair judgement since I wasn't there.

Is it more the venue and type of display ("artsy" for lack of a better term) that is the distinguishing factor here?

 

[0soyoung]

I think you are right, coh. It was 'artsy'.
I think it was exciting.
I think it has generated a lot of buzz.

Robert Steven put on a museum exhibit of bonsai in Malaysia. It was 'artsy'.
I think it was exciting.
I think it generated a lot of buzz.

Bonsai is art.
Art is communicating thru emotions.
Personally I enjoy the irreverance for 'how its always been done' embodied by both of these shows.


... well, that's the logic of how I see it.

Emotionally, I want more. Not imitations, but more shows doing something different, something irrreverant, something original goddamit!

 

[CraftyTanuki]

Does anyone have pics of the hamburger accent? I'm genuinely interested in seeing that.

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

Or, what is American Bonsai?

Suzuki told Michael, “When you get back home to the United States, use what you have learned here about display to make images that are American - learn the boats, the birds, the authentic things that speak of your home.” (Post-Dated, by Michael Hagedorn)

This is what American bonsai is to me. Taking the practice of potted trees and putting an American twist on them, using the Japanese model to, "make images that are American." I don't know that scrolls speak of "home", but I'm still trying to think of things that do. Michael's bronze crabs sitting on some sprinkled sand really spoke to me of being an American accent to his beautiful vine maple.

 

[Djtommy]

From the pictures i have seen It looks to me that the way the trees where shown didnt lean itself to using scrolls.
Sounds like a fair enough reason to me.

 

[sorce]

Scrolls are not something American

Neither is Bonsai!

Makes half sense, or none!

Sorce

 

[thumblessprimate1]

An extreme of American bonsai would be an American species tree, planted in an American made pot, displayed on an American made stand, and shown with an accent plant that was native where the tree was found. Scrolls in Ryan's mind are not something that is necessary in American bonsai. I see his reasoning, and have yet to make any conclusions for myself personally.

This statement is very different from the one mentioned earlier.

In one of the Panel Discussions, Ryan stated that scrolls were not allowed because scrolls are something common to the Japanese culture. His reasoning was that scrolls were something that were not a part of our culture, so he didn't want them in the cup.

Not attacking. Critiquing, btw. He's done an impressive job and has amazing skills. I see that, but we should be free to comment with respect.