Pseudomonas syringae?

[penumbra]

So this is why I recommend people proceed cautiously with organics with Japanese maples.

As bonsai yes, but all JMs are grown in the ground or in organic mixes.
Incidentally, all the dead maples were not pruned for a year and roots not touched for two years. They looked fine last summer but did have some powdery mildew at the end of the year. That was of course a warning sign.

 

[Mad Tabby]

I used to use Lysol and bleach regularly. Bleach can be used in spray if you go by smell, it has to be just under where you can smell it if sprayed on a sheet of paper, not at 10% recommended on some articles or in the lab. The real Lysol concentrated kind contains the qac's/ quaternary compound you are likely to get with the brand name bactericide but different emulsifier. Again, at serious dilution can be sprayed but just in case cover soil.

If you cannot find the real Lysol, Detto is what Lysol used to be. You may find it in first aid or cleaning depending on the store. Or farm supply stores carry it.

 

[ABCarve]

I was surprised when I went to their site and saw it was a form of copper. Seems like a huge price to pay. The 18 maples that are dead are in almost 100% 0rganic growers mix that I have been using virtually unchanged for over 40 years. It is a variation of what almost all nurseries use that is tweaked for individual climate and such. It really is not feasible for me two grow hundreds of pots from 4 inches to 20 gallon using a bonsai mix. At any rate, the death seems to have been isolated. I have one significant JM that is on the opposite side of the house in a bonsai mix that may or may not have pseudomonas, but it took a turn 2 days ago and all of its inner leaves turned bright autumn red in the morning and brown a crispy in the evening. I don't think it is the same, hope not. I was repotted fairly late in the season, a few weeks ago, so it may be reacting to that assault.
Thanks for pitching in .

Have you looked into mefenoxam or brand name Subdue. I know bonsai pro who had an issue with this in his nursery and that’s how it was treated. It’s very pricey.

 

[nuttiest]

If you cannot find the real Lysol, Detto is what Lysol used to be. You may find it in first aid or cleaning depending on the store. Or farm supply stores carry it.

No. that is a completely different chemical, a phenolic compound.
Would be like comparing frac group 3 and 7 fungicides

 

[Mikea454]

As bonsai yes, but all JMs are grown in the ground or in organic mixes.
Incidentally, all the dead maples were not pruned for a year and roots not touched for two years. They looked fine last summer but did have some powdery mildew at the end of the year. That was of course a warning sign.

any updates on how things are going?

@Leo in N E Illinois (maybe outdated now)
yes pseudomonas is gram negative, although copper sulfate is sold as a fungicide it is antimicrobial, it is not a specific antifungal like nystatin. If your interested, it was an area of study for resistant infections like pseudomons -

Antibacterial effect of copper sulfate against multi-drug resistant nosocomial pathogens isolated from clinical samples

With the emergence of antibiotic resistance and the hospital acquired infection, the interest for antimicrobial agents has recently increased again in public health. Copper is recommended as a supplementary method of increasing biological safety in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[penumbra]

Peroxide worked well for me. No further infections since my earlier post.

 

[Mike254]

Peroxide worked well for me. No further infections since my earlier post.

When you say worked well, do you mean that it helped cure/save already infected maples or did it simple stop the spread? Are any of the infected maples still alive or recovering?

 

[andrewiles]

It has certainly been a problem for me here in the PNW. It's very dependent on which cultivars you grow -- some are very susceptible.

Earlier this year I emailed one of the local pathology labs and this is part of their response. My bolding. Figured they'd be fine with me reposting. This is from Jenny Glass at WSU. It was regarding an air layer that died with the usual blackened trunk. Not actually tested for pseudomonas, but I thought some of her comments about ice nucleation and copper resistance were interesting.

​

Well, I am sure that the black discoloration is caused by the bacteria Pseudomonas (pathogen contains interesting features such as is toxin producing- thus killing large portions of plant tissue- and it contains an ice-nucleation gene that allows for water to freeze at temperatures above freezing—thus creating more capacity for winter wounds where the pathogen can gain entry). Also Pseudomonas is ubiquitous – found on most plant surfaces and for the most part functions as an epiphyte (in a non-pathogenic stage) but under certain conditions/triggers, it is also an effective pathogen. See https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisea...ny-plants/bacteria-other-prokaryotes/diseases​

​

What I am not sure of is that often Pseudomonas goes hand in hand with other problems. And it is hard to assess for other problems without seeing the plant. In Japanese maple, I have seen poor pruning cuts, plant root zones being buried (lack of aeration for healthy growth), underlying diseases such as Verticillium wilt (https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/maple-acer-spp-verticillium-wilt ) and/or Phytophthora ( https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/maple-acer-spp-phytophthora-root-rot ) then predisposing the plant to attack by other more opportunistic diseases, sometimes the bacterial Pseudomonas but also coral spot/aka Nectria fungus ( https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/maple-acer-spp-nectria-canker )​

​

It could be that just the stress of being air-layered and trying to grow in pumice was too much for this particular plant/cultivar. Or something else could be going on.​

​

One thing of caution- much of the work with Pseudomonas in landscape plant production has found that frequent application/over-reliance of copper fungicides (which can also help to prevent infection by plant-pathogenic bacteria) lead to the selection of copper-resistant bacterial colonies already existing in the natural environment and so Pseudomonas problems can become unmanageable and even exacerbated by the use of copper products. (I am not able to test for copper-resistance in recovered bacteria).​

 

[penumbra]

When you say worked well, do you mean that it helped cure/save already infected maples or did it simple stop the spread? Are any of the infected maples still alive or recovering?

The 16 or 18 that were infected died within days. The peroxide was spayed over the entire area and on about 150 maples that did not get infected. I sprayed 3 times over 3 weeks.

 

[pdx.bonsai]

I’m dealing with this on a coral bark maple (I believe that’s what it is from a post I shared on FB. I live in the PNW zone 8b.

This started from a poor attempt to air layer and it has been spreading, I unfortunately mis watered during the summer causing more stress and I’ve noticed the tree blacken over time.

I just repotted and washed all the soil off and let it sit with a GENEROUS dose of copper fungicide. Before placing back in with fresh soil with pumice for more air flow.

I did this while I ordered Phyton 27 in the mean time.

The roots look healthy, the plant itself looks like it’s pushing out buds from the trunk so I’m am staying hopeful.

Any tips are appreciated

 

[andrewiles]

It's a bit early for a repot, so make sure you protect it during our upcoming cold spell. Don't let it freeze the remainder of this winter.

It looks to me like dieback from the failed air layer, and not necessarily more than that. Since that apex was the majority of the tree you're going to get death along the trunk below that point until it stops at a live branch. In your second picture it looks to be stopping at the large secondary branch. But on the right side you have nothing so it may die back further.

The fact that the lower truck still looks healthy is a good sign. Other than what you're doing with the fungicides, not much else to do but keep sheltered and well cared for.

 

[Ohmy222]

assuming no black down low, i would chop it down to the lower branch. I am not saying that it will work but have heard of people having luck cutting out the black. when you cut though you may see black on the inside too. I don't know that there is a way to cure it other than amputating the infected parts. if you have others around you should spray everything and clean your tools too.

 

[pdx.bonsai]

It's a bit early for a repot, so make sure you protect it during our upcoming cold spell. Don't let it freeze the remainder of this winter.

It looks to me like dieback from the failed air layer, and not necessarily more than that. Since that apex was the majority of the tree you're going to get death along the trunk below that point until it stops at a live branch. In your second picture it looks to be stopping at the large secondary branch. But on the right side you have nothing so it may die back further.

The fact that the lower truck still looks healthy is a good sign. Other than what you're doing with the fungicides, not much else to do but keep sheltered and well cared for.

I’ve marked it with a sharpie to see if the black progresses, otherwise it’s staying indoors for a while.

I’m really hoping it’s natural die back mixed with poor watering during the summer.

 

[pdx.bonsai]

assuming no black down low, i would chop it down to the lower branch. I am not saying that it will work but have heard of people having luck cutting out the black. when you cut though you may see black on the inside too. I don't know that there is a way to cure it other than amputating the infected parts. if you have others around you should spray everything and clean your tools too.

I’ve isolated it and it’s elevated indoors, Phyton 27 should arrive next week.

Marked the die off with a sharpie to see if it keeps growing.

Might just just it all back and apply super thrive and add in that Phyton if it does in fact continue to grow.

 

[Gabler]

super thrive

Superthrive is snake oil.

 

[pdx.bonsai]

Superthrive is snake oil.

Thanks for your thoughts, not really sure how helpful a baseless claim is but… this is a safe space

 

[Gabler]

Thanks for your thoughts, not really sure how helpful a baseless claim is but… this is a safe space

Baseless claim? Countless experiments have shown it has no effect. I have yet to encounter one experiment where it made a difference.

 

[pdx.bonsai]

Feel

Baseless claim? Countless experiments have shown it has no effect. I have yet to encounter one experiment where it made a difference.

Feel free to cite your sources.

 

[Gabler]

Feel

Feel free to cite your sources.

The burden of proof is on Superthrive. Notwithstanding, it's easy to find sources debunking the manufacturer's claims. I have yet to encounter any controlled experiments which support the manufacturer's claims.

SUPER Thriving Lettuce?

In this post I explore the use of SUPERthrive in hydroponics and whether there was a benefit in my test case.

gardenprofessors.com

SUPERthrive experiment on Archontophoenix alexandrae

www.marriedtoplants.com

Does Superthrive work?

www.organiclawndiy.com