Processing Copper Wire - Burning The Wire 1

[GrimLore]

Guess - Slow cool for copper hardens while quench cooling softens it. Honest not certain on copper but it is the case in some other metals...

Grimmy

 

[prestontolbert]

When you quench it, it does remove most of the copper oxide from the surface. Cooling naturally allows it stay on. Copper oxide is beneficial in minute amounts, but in excess has a deleterious effect on roots. Copper oxide forms on the surface of the wire when its heated. The last time I quenched wire, out of about 4lbs. of copper I got maybe 10 grams of oxide. Maximum recommended application of copper is 2000 grams PER ACRE. If you use miracle gro, or other copper bearing fertilizer and use un-quenched wire, you MIGHT stunt the growth of your trees.

 

[GrimLore]

When you quench it, it does remove most of the copper oxide from the surface. Cooling naturally allows it stay on. Copper oxide is beneficial in minute amounts, but in excess has a deleterious effect on roots. Copper oxide forms on the surface of the wire when its heated. The last time I quenched wire, out of about 4lbs. of copper I got maybe 10 grams of oxide. Maximum recommended application of copper is 2000 grams PER ACRE. If you use miracle gro, or other copper bearing fertilizer and use un-quenched wire, you MIGHT stunt the growth of your trees.

So how does that small amount of copper get to the root system and then stunt - sorry copper is needed and given the amount we are talking about does not equate to danger...Four Pounds of copper is a LOT either way. I am not arguing with what could happen I just cannot wrap my head around it really happens... I think it would have more to do with tinsel strength.

Grimmy

 

[prestontolbert]

Copper oxide is not flexible. When you bend it, any present oxide is loosened or falls off. It is very potent and can build up in soil. Considering the maximum amount of copper necessary to help prevent chlorosis without causing it is 2000g per acre, 1/10g is still way too much for a bonsai pot. So the whole point is that I would rather control the amount of copper my trees receive than allowing chance to dictate the copper levels.
...and quenching copper wire doesn't harden it, though I do anneal yearly, sometimes just for the hell of it right before I wire.

 

[GrimLore]

So if you are concerned with it getting into the soil you could wipe it off before using it? Sorry I AM NOT ASKING to cause an argument I AM asking to better understand. I retired from the Scientific and Technology fields at a rather early age. Curious is all as I do understand to much Copper can kill but some is needed. I have two Crabapples(and acres of trees) that needed Copper Fungicide this past season. If Copper did indeed penetrate the soil it did not seem to bother them. They grew from 4 foot bare rooted shipped from Georgia to eight foot trees in pots in one growing season...

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

By quinching your wire after heating is defeating the purpose. Bringing any metal up to temp to anneal it and then quinching tempers the metal.

Hmmm...no one gonna ask why copper is quenched?

I bet you know, please dazzle us.

I'd rather you also tell why not, since multiple sources already debunked your temper theory.

 

[Anthony]

Hmm,

does this help. Uncle K also makes jewellery. The standard blends of Au/Ag/Cu, and Cu, can be heated to a light glow and quenched.
This will allow the metal alloys and metal to be easily rolled,beaten and if working a ring made flexible for soldering joints, adding on more metal.

The above metal alloys and metal, will work harden as they are twisted, hammer pounded or rolled. [ aligment of molecules and as worked disaligment ?]

If you add Sn to Cu to make Bronze, it must be heated and then air cooled. Quenching [ in water ] will harden this alloy.

Does this help ?

A question came up on IBC about using brass wire [ cu / zn ], the research showed that zn might cause problems from oxide formation and possible migration through watering or flaking/powdering of the oxide.

The Chinese also supply, Aluminum wire coated with plastic or other to look like Gold or non-tarnishing wire, used it to wrap a small seagrape for a year, no problems encountered. Wire was also in contact with coral.

Simplest way according the Japanese is just to make a small fire using straw [ newspapers by Gerhard ] and just quenching the cu wire.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[MrFancyPlants]

You guys got me curious as to whether or not to quench. Here is an interesting experiment out of UW that goes into some details about annealing copper. If you don't feel like reading along, it says that it doesn't matter how fast you cool the copper on the scale that we are dealing with, it won't have an appreciable effect on the hardness to quench or not.

http://www.materialseducation.org/educators/mated-modules/docs/Work_Hardening_and_Annealing_of_Copper.pdf

 

[pwk5017]

Im all for quenching it. All the impurities build on the outside of the wire, and they break and fly off as you bend the wire. Its really annoying and somewhat harmful(eyes concentrating on where to place wire, while having metal shard flying everywhere). Quenching should slough most of the impurities off. I have wire from Jim Gremel and I do not believe he quenches judging by the way my wire behaves. I have to say thats a deal breaker for me.

Thanks for posting the tutorial, I will have to give it a shot. My dad is a buyer for an electrical supply company, so bare copper wire is right at my finger tips.

 

[prestontolbert]

So if you are concerned with it getting into the soil you could wipe it off before using it? Sorry I AM NOT ASKING to cause an argument I AM asking to better understand. I retired from the Scientific and Technology fields at a rather early age. Curious is all as I do understand to much Copper can kill but some is needed. I have two Crabapples(and acres of trees) that needed Copper Fungicide this past season. If Copper did indeed penetrate the soil it did not seem to bother them. They grew from 4 foot bare rooted shipped from Georgia to eight foot trees in pots in one growing season...

Grimmy

Grimmy-
The only potential concern is with trees that get very infrequent repotting and tons of wire. Some vineyards and orchards that used to get bordeaux mix (copper sulfate) are basically barren. Copper in the soil helps roots uptake nitrogen and prevent chlorosis. Too much copper causes roots that look weird and contorted with near inability to uptake nutrients resulting in chlorosis. Wiping it off might help, but like pwk5017 said, the scale comes off while you are wiring. I'm just offering a reason, all other variables being equal, to quench wire.
-PT

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I was looking through the rafters of my new old house and saw some ancient wire I was hoping that was copper that looks like it was put in place as a pipe hanger for a pipe that was no longer there. Unfortunately, when I clipped a bit of it, it had more of a grey color to it. I've heard of aluminum wire being used in older houses, but this wire was very stiff. I would say even stiffer than a comperable gague work hardened copper. Maybe iron or low grade steel? No much rust, but maybe a touch. Any ideas on what it could be?

 

[GrimLore]

I was looking through the rafters of my new old house and saw some ancient wire I was hoping that was copper that looks like it was put in place as a pipe hanger for a pipe that was no longer there. Unfortunately, when I clipped a bit of it, it had more of a grey color to it. I've heard of aluminum wire being used in older houses, but this wire was very stiff. I would say even stiffer than a comperable gague work hardened copper. Maybe iron or low grade steel? No much rust, but maybe a touch. Any ideas on what it could be?

Sounds like coat hanger honest

Grimmy

 

[lordy]

I was looking through the rafters of my new old house and saw some ancient wire I was hoping that was copper that looks like it was put in place as a pipe hanger for a pipe that was no longer there. Unfortunately, when I clipped a bit of it, it had more of a grey color to it. I've heard of aluminum wire being used in older houses, but this wire was very stiff. I would say even stiffer than a comperable gague work hardened copper. Maybe iron or low grade steel? No much rust, but maybe a touch. Any ideas on what it could be?

Could be galvanized steel.

 

[Poink88]

I was looking through the rafters of my new old house and saw some ancient wire I was hoping that was copper that looks like it was put in place as a pipe hanger for a pipe that was no longer there. Unfortunately, when I clipped a bit of it, it had more of a grey color to it. I've heard of aluminum wire being used in older houses, but this wire was very stiff. I would say even stiffer than a comperable gague work hardened copper. Maybe iron or low grade steel? No much rust, but maybe a touch. Any ideas on what it could be?

If you have a magnet, you can easily rule out or tell if it is steel.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Good thinking, you are right that it was ferrous, oh well. It was insulated, which was throwing me off. I bought a couple spools of aluminum recently which is a lot easier for my clumsy hands to work with anyways.

 

[typoolVT]

I have been using copper wire for 30 years. Copper wire should even be annealed yearly or at least every other year. Just the difference between winter and summer will work harden copper. Kenji Miyata will bust your knuckles if you pick up a roll of wire with one hand or allow it to clunk on the table.

I don't care what anyone says if you quench copper you change the arrangement. Change the arrangement and it hardens.

Also the rolls of wire being shown here are much too small. They should be at least 12 inches in diameter over 14 gauge. 5.5 inches is too small and even trying to use a 5.5 coil for a tree will harden just making it straighter and usable for winding around a branch.

To really do copper correctly, it should be cut in two or three foot lengths, annealed straight and stored in tubes. The tubes protect the copper from damage and it is ready to use straight from the tube.

I work on a golf course and I take all the old irrigation wire(#10/12 gauge) and burn it in a fire and quench it in a cold creek. Every time I do it, the copper is just as soft as some of Julian's wire, and it holds it shape. I think everyone has their own opinion on this subject, but as long as your branches/trunks hold when you wire them up then, to each his own.

 

[youngsai]

Didn't want to start a new thread, so...

I did a search and came to this thread. I'm planning on buying copper wire and annealling it myself.

If you guys don't mind, please let me know what sizes (in mesh I'm lost) I should start with. I want to do some major work on a few trees, and would like a normal array of sizes. So say I was going to choose six sizes of wire, what sizes (again by mesh) should I buy?

Thank you all for your time!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I did a search and came to this thread. I'm planning on buying copper wire and annealling it myself.

If you guys don't mind, please let me know what sizes (in mesh I'm lost) I should start with. I want to do some major work on a few trees, and would like a normal array of sizes. So say I was going to choose six sizes of wire, what sizes (again by mesh) should I buy?

Thank you all for your time!

Jim Gremel's site has a good conversion chart. It is where I buy my copper wire. You'll need wire that is 1/3-1/2 the thickness of the branch you're wiring. In copper, I use mainly 4ga to 18ga in even increments.